You're alive... but can't make decisions

It’s a subject or issue many people ignore.
But by doing advance planning or incapacity planning avoids legal landmines at the worst possible time.
In this episode of SARA MAKES SENSE, Sara speaks with Blair Botsford on why everyone should take control of their situation, well before they can’t control their situation.

Guest: Blair Botsford, O'Sullivan Estate Lawyers, LLP
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Got a question for Sara? Send her an email at ask@saramakessense.ca and she might respond to it in an upcoming episode

Sara's website is https://www.wddevelopment.ca/ 

Transcript

Sara McCullough: (00:01)
Yeah, I know I'm completely not ready. So let's do this thing, 

Sara McCullough: (00:13)
Your car, there's a noise under the hood, you've heard it before, it kind of rattles, it's actually gotten a little bit louder, but you're not that worried because you've already talked to the mechanic about it and so, you know, kind of where he's gonna go when you take it in, you know, roughly, the estimate to get it fixed; so you're prepared, you're in control of this, but you do kind of put it off. You ignore it a little bit because you're going somewhere on Saturday. So, you're starting your Saturday, you've got big plans for the day and then it happens; the car breaks down. Now you're stranded, stressed, on the side of the highway; no longer in control. That scenario plays out all the time. Wait, plot twist, you're not the initially calm, now stressed out, person; I want you to imagine that you are the car and the car has no choice in the mechanic. No choice in how and when repairs are done, no choice which garage it lives in. Someone else does. 

Sara McCullough: (01:22)
This episode of Sara Makes Sense is not about auto mechanics. It's about the reality of the things that we aren't in control of; our physical bodies and our brains aren't immortal and damage happens in thousands of unpredictable ways. Sometimes permanently, sometimes temporarily, if something happens to you, who's going to make decisions for you. Power of attorney documents. Do you have them, do your loved ones, have them, did they name you to act for them? In this episode of Sara Makes Sense, we're talking about why having powers of attorney, before you need them, could very well be one of the most important decisions you ever make. 

Sara McCullough: (02:07)
A power of attorney, done the right way, it can decrease stress and suffering at life's most difficult moments. It can also keep families together. It's amazing how crisis and stress can reignite decade old resentments among family members. Sibling rivalries can be reborn. In intense times, when everyone who can, not should, but can, weighs in and the family dynamic can result in bad and sometimes expensive decisions. My guest today is Blair Botsford, a partner at Dentons Canada. She's a lawyer with extensive experience. Her preference is to use that extensive knowledge and experience to help people avoid turning crises into legal battles. However, she's also had a front row seat to chaos and calamity that families sometimes face when a proper power of attorney is missing in their most pressing time of need. So Blair, there's gonna be people listening right now probably saying one of two things. Isn't a power of attorney like a will, or my estate is pretty straightforward, I don't really need a power of attorney. So can you just start by explaining what is a power of attorney? 

Blair Botsford: (03:17)
Thanks, Sara and thank you very much for the very kind introduction. Um, the very simple explanation of a power of attorney is that it's a document that allows people to appoint a substitute decision maker to assist them, you know, when they've lost capacity or even in the realm of power of attorney for property; they might simply be unavailable. They could have had an accident out of the country and they need someone to speak on their behalf and help administer their affairs. 

Sara McCullough: (03:46)
Okay. So sometimes when I'm explaining it to clients, I, I do tend to go back to a little bit of old terminology and sometimes I say, it's what we used to call the living will. 

Blair Botsford: (03:57)
Yep. That, that terminology comes up quite a lot and it's borrowed from other jurisdictions in part. The living will people are talking about power of attorney for care when they're talking about that, but it's really the, that's more the, the expression of their wishes around healthcare decision making, particularly, you know, end of life decision making. But the living will concept, it's not the actual legal document that appoints the substitute decision maker they're kind of related and combined concepts. 

Sara McCullough: (04:32)
Okay okay because again, I think people are, are often confused about what exactly they are and so that terminology seems to at least give me a place to start with people. (Yep.) Um, and you mentioned a few minutes ago that these are documents that we would use, um, often when we don't have the capacity to make our own decisions. So can you just talk for a few minutes about what capacity is? 

Blair Botsford: (04:58)
Yep um, capacity is a, a more difficult legal concept to explain than, than might appear on the surface um, what you sometimes see in literature. And I think the common concept is that capacity, there's a bright line; you're either capable or you're not capable. And it's very easy to determine what that is or isn’t, yeah, it is all encompassing concept. And under Ontario law and Canadian law, more generally, capacity is task specific. So we're looking at capacity to do certain things; enter into a contract, make a, will, make a power of attorney, uh, manage finances, make healthcare decision making. So it gets actually quite granular to use a popular term. And so there are different tests for different types of capacity. So we really have to focus in on what we wanna know a person is capable of doing or not doing to decide whether we can a professional, say a healthcare provider, can know if the person's capable of making that particular health decision or they need to, the healthcare provider, would need to check in with the substitute decision maker. So it gets a little bit challenging actually to constantly be evaluating whether a person has capacity or not capacity. 

Sara McCullough: (06:21)
Okay I think that's, that's a really interesting point because I think we often do think it's an all or nothing thing and that we either have it for all areas or we don't have it. And so just to be clear, it it's possible then, legally, to have capacity to do one of the things you listed, but maybe not another. And I know I've, I've listened to some talks and been in seminars where people have talked about the difference between the capacity to draw up a power of attorney, so to be capable of stating your wishes and naming a substitute decision maker, is not actually the same as the capacity to, as you said, enter a contract, so do something like get married. So it's possible to have capacity to do one but not the other. 

Blair Botsford: (07:11)
And it, it even gets more subtle than that. So the, you know, the requirements to have capacity to manage finances, such as, you know, knowing what your assets are to, whom you owe duties and obligations, is a different test than capacity to make a power of attorney; they're similar, but someone can be incapable of managing property, like through a formal capacity assessment yet still have enough capacity to instruct counsel to make a power of attorney. So it, it really does get very subtle in some ways.

Sara McCullough: (07:48)
That does seem complicated and I think, um, so important to think this through ahead of really needing the documents, like really ahead of needing the documents, not there's been some signs that things are slipping, um, and then trying to make these arrangements or, or talk to your spouse or parent about what they might want to happen if they couldn't make decisions. Um, because I think most of us walk around with the idea that we've got time to do these documents, right? I don't need them today. I'm capable today, so I can put this decision off until tomorrow. And I think there's that kind of slow cognitive decline that can happen. Or there's those sudden events like you were in an accident or, you know, the current environment we're in because we're recording in April of 2021, if you catch COVID and end up on a ventilator, you can't all of a sudden make decisions for yourself in that time period. 

Blair Botsford: (08:55)
Yeah um, that's a good point, Sara and it's something that the trust and estates  professionals, um, working in this area, see all the time and it's, you know, it's quite natural. People like to be optimistic. They like to think that, you know, they're, they're not gonna be one of those statistics, that it happens to other people that's fine, you know, everything's good in life and I will see an event coming. (Yes.) And realistically accidents happen. You can have a sudden health onset, unforeseen circumstances, it's reality. (Mm-hmm.) People can get caught by surprise. So doing estate planning, such as dealing with powers of attorney for property and care, it's, I'm gonna say it's sort of like an insurance policy, it's that contingency plan. You don't want to ever have to use it, but do it, you know, keep it up to date, but tuck it away for emergency purposes so that you're not scrambling, not having conflict and challenge with your family, third partie,s confronting, you know, additional expenses that maybe could have been avoided when you do it when it's a, a bit calmer time. 

Sara McCullough: (10:08)
And I think that's, that is so important. When I talk to clients, I often say, it's not, you know, I hope you don't need these papers and, and I think somehow we've, we're all a little bit superstitious and think that the more we talk about it, the more likely it is that something's going to happen um, which statistically is not true at all um, and as you say, it's, it's difficult to impossible to draw these documents up either in the middle of a crisis or at the beginning of a crisis. Now you've mentioned two different types of power of attorney and so I'd like to cover those one at a time because they are, you know, functionally quite different. And so could you just talk a little bit about the power of attorney for personal care or power of attorney for health and kind of what that, how that functions and what it does and doesn't do. 

Blair Botsford: (11:04)
Sure. Thanks, Sara. So the, the power of attorney for personal care deals with what we talk about is, you know, health related issues. Strictly speaking, if you looked at the legislation, what personal care means under Ontario law is healthcare, nutrition, shelter, clothing, hygiene, or safety. So it's six broad categories, all, all health related and anyone who's at least 16 years of age and has the requisite legal capacity can make a POA for care. Um, under 16, they don't have the same ability to make the formal legal document, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't think about expressing wishes, I mean, if they do at a young age, have health concerns, what have you, that they're facing, cuz it's not like, you know, automatically at 16 or 18, that's when you start to confront health issues and you're immune from that under that. So, informally even having a letter of wishes that can, they can communicate to their parents, um, and have, you know, people around them who would be in a position to make decisions, be aware if that's helpful too. 

Blair Botsford: (12:17)
Um, part of the power of attorney process or what we call advanced care planning process. I mean, yes, there's the formal legal document that records, you know, you’re appointing a spouse, a sibling, a friend, someone as the decision maker; then there's also the ability to record those wishes around your healthcare. Some people have religious or other reasons for maybe not wanting to consent to certain things so that's a place to record that as well, so it's very clear to the outside world. Um, there is even the ability to include provisions around use of force. That's somewhat unique. We call that, um, a Ulysses clause, but for people with certain specific health issues, um, where they may need to be detained and have medication adjusted and you know, treatments, they can consent upfront to certain use of force measures to be brought to a healthcare facility, detained, evaluated, and helped to get back on track with, if people want to do that, then they have to go through a capacity assessment within a short time frame of doing the, the power of attorneys so it's clear that they knew (I see) they were putting those restrictions on themselves. So it's not something we see very often, but I have had clients that I know other lawyers who've done that. And for people who just recognize their in a special risk category, that 

Sara McCullough: (13:49)
Is interesting because we, I think our, um, as a society, much more comfortable with the idea of personal choice and um, our rights and I think that's, um, you know, just a really interesting space to be in, um, when you are, if you were ever to be in a situation where you really would not be capable of making decisions and couldn't make those decisions until you were back on medication type of thing, is that where you're thinking this would be, uh, um, 

Blair Botsford: (14:25)
Um, not, not exactly because right now we don't have advanced directives in Canada, so I don't wanna lead people down that path of thinking, but I'm gonna say, you know, uh, you know, certain mental health conditions where, you know, people, if their medication needs adjusting something's happened or stopped taking medication, they, you know, would start to spiral and (right) they would, they, when they're on proper levels of medications, they recognize how important their treatment regime is. (Okay.) So knowing that something could change and they wouldn't even recognize that it's gone down a bad path. 

Sara McCullough: (15:09)
Yes. 

Blair Botsford: (15:10)
Can consent upfront to, you know.  

Sara McCullough: (15:13)
Right, if I'm in this situation, I do, I do want to come back to this current level. That's exactly what I was thinking. Okay. All right. That's really interesting to know. And again, um, something that's so important to say ahead of it happening so that the people who are, you know, responsible for helping you or, or being your substitute decision maker know clearly that that's what you wanted. (Yep.) Because I think while we're really focusing today, mainly on, um, you as an individual, getting these documents in place and naming somebody who can make decisions on your behalf, the other piece of that is you are giving somebody an incredible responsibility, if they are making decisions on your behalf. And I think for me, that's part of why it's so important that we're as clear as we can be, whether it's in the document itself or in an attached letter of wishes so that the person who's making these decisions, really in a crisis, is confident that this is what we would've wanted for ourselves, because I imagine substitute decision makers, I've worked with some clients who have acted as substitute decision makers, usually for parents and they talk about how difficult it is once they're actually in that position. It's a very difficult role. And we feel a lot of responsibility. 

Blair Botsford: (16:47)
Yeah. Thanks, Sara. That's actually a really good point to bring up, uh, particularly around the healthcare decision making (mm-hmm) and it's power of attorney for property that tends to get a lot of the focus, but the, the much more difficult, um, substitute decision making role really is on the healthcare because it ties into so much about what a person would define as quality of life and substitute decision makers are supposed to stand in the shoes of the grantor, the person that's appointed them, and yes, you can try and include special instructions or, you know, health wishes and philosophy in the document, that's helpful; it clarifies things for the outside world, for third parties, health providers so they know people have turned their minds to it. But it's later expressed wishes that govern so if someone has expressed something verbally later, that's different than in the document, that creates its own unique challenges. The, the best solution is really that ongoing dialogue with family. Um, (mm-hmm) not so much when you're relatively healthy and don't have a particular concern, but certainly if there is a change, a progression; then the people around you know and are aware and can have that intimate dialogue and really dive down into what you mean by quality of life and, and what's acceptable and not acceptable; which can change as things evolve, it's not usually static for people. 

Sara McCullough: (18:23)
Absolutely,  I've worked with a client in the past and she had acted as power of attorney for actually both of her parents and she lost both of her parents quite early; she was in her twenties. And I remember her talking because I think when we think of power of attorney for healthcare, we think of that big, you know, pull the plug or don't pull the plug decision. And she said to me, when the time came for me to make that decision, because she did have to make that decision for her father; she said that decision was clear; I actually had no trouble with that decision. What I had trouble with was when the healthcare provider called me and said, do you want us to give your father the flu shot this year? Do you want us to put him on this vitamin? She said it was all those tiny decisions that that she found much more difficult. She said, and again, I think we tend to focus on that end of life, like the really, really end of life, and she said, by the time that stage happened, that was clear and she was at peace with that decision quite quickly. It was all the ones leading up to that. And so I think again, in a situation where we've got prolonged care or multiple smaller decisions that need to be made, that's where I think the, um, difficulty and some of the sleepless nights for your decision maker are going to happen. 

Blair Botsford: (19:50)
Yep and it brings out a practical point too, is that it's often not just health, like healthy not healthy, and, and large seismic changes in big decisions and then the role is over. It's actually, it actually can be a very long term role for people and that's something to contemplate when you're picking who your substitute decision makers are; is there stamina and availability to do this, not for a few days or a few weeks, but it could be a few years. And it is those small ongoing decisions and constant availability and what it can do. And oh, it impacts people's own well, the decision maker's wellbeing, their, their ability to work. (Mm-hmm) uh, their ability to take care of their own health, their own families and so then that gets into the role of, you know, maybe co-attorneys or the substitutes that are appointed as well; just so you've got supports around the person who's in this role. 

Sara McCullough: (20:57)
Right. So it really is a big, big role. 

Blair Botsford: (21:01)
Mm-hmm 

Sara McCullough: (21:01)
All right, so that's the power of attorney for personal care or power of attorney for health. Can you talk about the other type? And again, these are completely separate documents, correct? 

Blair Botsford: (21:11)
Yes and, um, power of attorney for property so that relates to all financial decision making, uh, maybe an unfortunate term using property, it tends to bring to mind the notion of real estate. (Yeah.) And that that's one part of it, but it's all financial decision making; you know, paying bills, filing tax returns, it's even deciding about the financial aspect of paying for, say, retirement home care facilities, what have you. So the person making the health decisions is not the one in charge of that budget, unless they happen to also be the attorney for property. And sometimes they are, sometimes they're not. 

Sara McCullough: (21:52)
Okay. So again, that's an important other layer of dynamics on who's making your healthcare decisions versus who's making your financial decisions. And if they are two different people, how, how does that work? Right? You mentioned retirement care in there, or I, I imagine also if you needed care in your home.

Blair Botsford: (22:17)
There, there is the potential for conflict there. And it, it kind of works both ways. I have clients who say they want different decision makers, partly it's maybe different skill sets, but partly it's a dialogue and check and balance, 

Sara McCullough: (22:31)
Right. 

Blair Botsford: (22:32)
There's accountability between family members. And, but then some recognize, no that's gonna create conflict, it's better if one person just runs the whole show (mm-hmm) or two people out of say four children, it's just, they're gonna do it and get it done. 

Sara McCullough: (22:48)
Right. 

Blair Botsford: (22:49)
It really depends on individual family dynamics. What's gonna work. 

Sara McCullough: (22:54)
And I find often when I have this conversation with clients, especially if it's a very initial conversation, I think as a parent, sometimes the default is to want to name all of the children because you don't want to leave one out or, or make the kids believe that you like one of them more than the other one . And sometimes I say to clients, you know, because I've also been in, in seminars where they've talked about this and when the presenter says, who has acted as a power of attorney before or as an executor, if we're talking about wills, and you know, usually about half the room puts up their hand and then when the second question is, who would volunteer to do it again, nobody puts up their hand. And so sometimes I say to parents, oh, believe me, if it happens, the child you named will not believe that they are their favorite um, because it's a, it's a heavy job. But I think again, when you talk about that potential; if you've named two different people, or even if you've named the same person, again having your wishes down somewhere, or having your decision maker for property, have a working understanding of what was important to you and your spending decisions and how you managed your money; I think would be important here as well. I think it's maybe a little bit more clear on the health side, but we tend to forget on the financial side. 

Blair Botsford: (24:23)
Yeah um, I mean, there are very distinct duties and responsibilities. I mean, it's set out in the legislation, it's, it's protecting the best interests of the, the grantor, the person who's appointed them. So obviously honoring legal commitments, paying bills, paying taxes, and then it gets a little more challenging when you're getting into lifestyle (Right.) and issues around, you know, say charitable giving, making gifts during lifetime to friends and family, it's not prohibited, uh, the grantor could put in the document no gifts to anyone, that's fairly rare. Sometimes there's nothing in the document. I like to see it recorded. The legislation does allow it, but it can lead to a debate for sure about what they would do and is it compatible with their long term needs, say to pay for care, can former habits be continued or not? (Okay.) Yeah so if there's some clarity on that and understanding, it does help avoid some problems and conflict with people. 

Sara McCullough: (25:32)
And I think you said earlier that a substitute decision maker is really responsible for standing in the shoes of that person and making decisions in the way that that person would've made decisions. And I think that can be, uh, again difficult in the moment. Um, I've had, uh, clients where their children were acting as power of attorney and I at the time was managing investments. And so I know I've had conversations when, when the power of attorney or the substitute decision maker asked for some changes in the portfolio I did in one case respond, that sounds more like a decision you would make in your own portfolio rather than a decision your father would've made. And, and then I, I walked her back through, these are the changes that your father has asked me to make in the previous 18 months and you are now taking it in a different direction, and I'm just not sure that that's what your father would have done. So again, I think we all bring ourselves to this role and really our primary responsibility is to act as that as the grantor would have acted. 

Blair Botsford: (26:49)
Um, yes and no, I guess I'm gonna be typical lawyer here. (Excellent.) But put a, but in there. Caveat of yes. I mean, standing in their shoes, but again, it goes it also goes to their best interest. So if the grantor had a certain risk tolerance and, and, and financial management style, now they've suffered a health event, their financial situation has changed. They have unforeseen care costs, other things happening, and now maybe something more conservative is appropriate because need to safeguard and protect capital or now need to go from growth mode to generating income to cover off these expenses. So it, it right out of the gate on the surface, it can be hard to know which way it's going. Is the change actually a prudent one that makes sense for those changed circumstances? Or is it just some ad hoc, random? I like to do it this way and I'm in charge now and no, it really should still stay the same way that dad wanted to do it. 

Sara McCullough: (28:01)
Right and I think that's so important that, that, that bigger narrative still tracks, right? So that if the client had had changes, you know, you mentioned changes in income, changes in strategy; those happen for clients even without a health event, right? Even when you still have capacity. So I think you're right. That ability for everybody who's working in the client's best interest needs to step back and say, are we really doing the right thing? So very, very objectively and again, when you're in the middle of it, it's hard to do. Yeah. I think most of us need a couple, um, retakes on that one. 

Blair Botsford: (28:38)
Yeah and, and this is, I'm gonna say the advantage, uh, for people who do their financial planning, do their estate planning, have long-term relationships with professionals who have a sense of that bigger picture and, and where the client was intending to go, what the goals and expectations were. It's harder to make decisions in a vacuum, when it's a one off, because you don't know really what the reference point is. 

Sara McCullough: (29:05)
Mm-hmm , mm-hmm all right. Can you just, um, when we spoke on the phone last week, you had talked about a situation where you worked with clients who did not have powers of attorney and she ended up in the hospital. So can you just talk a little bit about that experience for you? 

Blair Botsford: (29:26)
Yeah thanks Sara. That for me is a good example of sort of, um, the extreme end of the scale of life catching you by surprise. It was, you know, a middle aged couple, married for 20 odd years and she happened to be more the breadwinner in the family. The husband was, um, you know, in, uh, the administering and, um, in the country, out of the country and, you know, they had children - college age. And yeah, the wife had a, a, a stroke watching TV ended up in a coma, uh, no forewarning, nothing so and no powers of attorney for care or property in place. Now on the healthcare side, the healthcare consent act does have a hierarchy of substitute decision makers so the spouse was able to make key decisions that those rules in the healthcare consent act don't cover absolutely everything the power of attorney for care does. 

Blair Botsford: (30:28)
The bigger problem was on the financial side. So the wife, as the primary earner in the family and being entitled to benefits through her work, um, those weren't accessible without proof the spouse had authority over her finances. So they were thrust into the situation of having to apply to court for guardianship. And it's a very different thing than doing power of attorney, it's a formal court application with prescribed forms, it takes some time, a little bit cumbersome. But the spouse, my client, he was technically financially dependent on his wife, which created the appearance of a conflict of interest. So the public guardian and trustee's office of, of the Ontario government reviews these applications before the court signs off. And there was some resistance there and some concern about his ability to be neutral and act prudently, have what have you. And, you know, it took an already challenging situation to another level and it got expensive very quickly. So, and I it's, you know, it's a horrible thing to see for people that are already going through a crisis, then they're confronted with technicalities in the legal system and a very formal, rigid process. 

Sara McCullough: (31:56)
Yeah. And, and as you say, I think we, we often, when we have a spouse assume that that role would default to them and as you say, on the, on the healthcare side, the healthcare act does provide a framework for that. But the financial is actually viewed very differently and, and I think in that situation, again, you're already in an unexpected situation and nobody wants to apply to the court for anything at that time. Never mind having it challenged. I, I would imagine for the husband to have had something come back in writing that, you know, we think you might not act in your wife's best interest would've been devastating to him. 

Blair Botsford: (32:43)
It, it was distressing. I think he took it very well in stride, um, handle handled it quite admirably but there was no doubt that was stressful. Like additional stress that he didn't need. (Mm-hmm.) Yeah, it's, you know, it is harsh criticism to receive (mm-hmm.)  you know, I, I tried to help put it in context of it is the government's role to review and vet, you know, they don't know people personally, so it's, it's the appearance of conflict and, you know, their following their mandate to challenge and question whether there are problems there, but yes, it does add a, a layer to things. 

Sara McCullough: (33:25)
Yes snd you mentioned the cost, so there was clearly a cost to him to have to go through this process and, and work with you to, to get through that. Do you have, do you remember ballpark what that cost was for that family? 

Blair Botsford: (33:42)
Yeah, the file, well, this file, is many years back for me, more than a decade, but (okay), um, yeah, the, the fees and disbursements on that were close to $20,000 and I would've anticipated half that. And, you know, as a courtesy to the client, the firm I was with at the time, we'd agreed to actually half of what I'd originally anticipated. So we were gonna cap fees at about five grand, you know, under all the circumstances and what have you. So, and, and we kept it there, we just took the loss. But, um, so, but yeah, that, that was a bit of a surprise and, you know, 

Sara McCullough: (34:23)
Absolutely. 

Blair Botsford: (34:24)
and not every client's gonna be in that situation where firms are going to slash fees and eat a big loss like that. (Right.) So certainly people should not expect that. Yeah. But you can, all of a sudden go from what you think is relatively small, manageable, digestible cost, and it blows up, (okay) if there are challenges.

Sara McCullough: (34:46)
And as you, and once there's a challenge, you don't really have the option to, to back out of it. If you want to act for this person, like once this happens, you have to play it through. 

Blair Botsford: (34:56)
Well, you could abandon the application, but then there's the problem. Well, in theory, you could abandon the application. The problem here is that, I mean, okay, the spouse doesn't wanna do it, but who else realistically can do it?  (Sure.) Their, you know, college age, child who's going through education and the trauma of a parent that might die? Not really, realistically, the best person, they didn't have other family or friends and, and the, the public guardian is the ultimate backup plan, but they will only act if there are no other people at all. (Okay.) So it does kind of put people into a corner of going down a path because there aren't easier realistic options to, to solve the problem. You get a trust company 

Sara McCullough: (35:49)
For financial. But I think again, most of us don't, most of us want somebody who knows us well and cares about us to, to be making those decisions. Um, all right. Well, that's, that's a really helpful example, I think, for what happens, um, when you've not done the planning ahead of time. And I certainly, part of my goal in this podcast is to really, really prompt listeners to please do this when you don't need it. I don't, I, I would love for you all to do it when you don't need it. I would love for you never to need these documents. Um, but the reality is we don't control that. Um, things happen that we don't anticipate, or even when we do anticipate, we assume it's not gonna be us. Um, so thank you so much for those insights today Blair, I really appreciate the time. 

Blair Botsford: (36:48)
Oh, thank you, Sara. I appreciate the opportunity, my pleasure.

Sara McCullough: (36:55)
In life we all have pieces scattered here and there. And today with Blair, we've talked about one of the most important pieces that you will ever have the opportunity to make decisions on; who can make decisions for you about your healthcare and your financials to care for you when you can't make decisions on your own. And I hope that this has prompted you to really take some action today on either reviewing the documents that you already have or drafting documents, if you don't have anything at all. So from time to time, we need someone who can cut through the noise. Someone who gets to know you as a person, but also can really show and make sense of your plan, not just the numbers, but truly what the numbers mean to you. This relationship and this plan belongs to you, not your planner. I'm Sara McCullough, thank you for listening to Sara Makes Sense. 

Disclaimer: (37:55)
The information in this podcast is intended for general information and illustrative purposes. For advice relevant to your specific situation, meet with a qualified financial planner, lawyer, or accountant before making any changes to your situation. Sara's designations and licensing include:  Certified Financial Planner, Registered Financial Planner, Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, and holding an insurance license.