Separation Sensibility

Getting separated is hard enough.
It’s easily one of life’s most difficult chapters.
Battling your lawyer as well as your ex-spouse is the last thing anyone needs.
In this episode of SARA MAKES SENSE, Sara speaks with veteran Family lawyer David Morneau.
Together they unpack the do’s and don’ts of how to deal with a lawyer, and how to get through the process with integrity intact. 

 David Morneau can be reached on LinkedIn

Got a question for Sara? Send her an email at ask@saramakessense.ca and she might respond to it in an upcoming episode

Sara's website is https://www.wddevelopment.ca/ 

Transcript

Sara (00:14):
I haven't talked to a lawyer yet. Well, we don't want to make it any worse and it feels like maybe I don't know how to say what's important. These are often opening lines in my conversations with clients who come to me for help with their financials during separation, as a certified divorce financial analyst, about 30 to 50% of my work in a year is with families who are separating and reshaping. It's a complicated time for so many reasons. And then you add in lawyers, two of them, Don't worry. I tell my prospective clients. And sometimes in the middle of the process, I remind my existing clients. I say, I think we're all genetically programmed to avoid lawyers and the client. And then I say, they're also human. And the reality is we've built a tough arena of family law for humans to work in. And this is a legal process. So you're going to get through this. You're going to have to get through this. And then the clients take a deep breath in the traditional legal arena that we've built for family law. It's tough for all of us to stay human in there for the majority of us. That is the goal. We just don't know how to do it.
Sara (01:34):
In this episode of Sara makes sense. My guest and I are covering a whole range of topics. You'll hear a perspective from an experienced family law lawyer that you don't always
Sara (01:49):
In this episode. If Sara makes sense, my guest and I are covering a whole range of topics. You'll hear a perspective from an experienced family law lawyer that you don't always get to hear. You'll hear about the pitfalls of DIY agreements, how to approach a separation so that you do retain some control and how to pay attention to effective advice. And based on past conversations with my guests, you may hear something about baseball with that. I'm thrilled to introduce my guest David Moreno. I met Dave when he was practicing family law as a collaborative lawyer, collaborative law is a specific type of law practice. And I'm going to let Dave expand on that, Dave. Welcome.
Dave (02:29):
Thank you very much for having me, Sara. I hope all is well,
Sara (02:33):
It is. I hope everything's well with you. We've been separated for so long. I'm going to let you introduce yourself for the most part. I'd like you to start with what your practice looked like when you pass the bar and started practicing.
Dave (02:47):
Oh, absolutely. So I was called to the bar in 1999. So I had article up here. Article is like your apprenticeship before you become a lawyer. And and I IED at a local firm after getting no offers from any other firms. And I article with an excellent law firm here, which kind of set me on the path of where I ended up going. So prior to when I was in law school, my mindset wasn't like the typical lawyer. Although my initial career trajectory was very much like the typical lawyer, especially at that time. So after arguing at that firm, I worked at a local criminal law firm. And in my view was I was very much a litigation lawyer. I is full throttle nasty cross examiner. I did a number of trials. My mindset at that time was when you take a case on you, take it and you run with it and court is the, the first option.
Sara (03:56): Okay.
Dave (03:57):
But that never sat well with me because while I was sitting down with my clients who are initially come to me in a very emotional state you know, I would be part of my not, not script, but part of my discussion with them at the beginning was always 95 to 99% of cases resolved. So there was a cognitive dissonance for me between how I was practicing versus how I was thinking. And ultimately it led me down the road to, I took collaborative family law training, I think back in 2001, I don't even think I was able to be a member of the collaborative group, because I had, hadn't been practicing for five years. That was their standard at that point in time.
Sara (04:45):
Okay.
Dave (04:45):
And and so I, I embarked down a road, which was which I call now consensual dispute resolution. So things like mediation, things like collaborative law, and I'm sure you'll peel back the, the layers of that onion to so we can tell the audience a little more what collaborative law is about, but getting to that whole mindset that if I'm telling a client 95 to 99% of matters resolved before they ever get to trial, then why aren't we focusing on that and going down a road where you can bring more peace. One of the things I'll tell you that even being a successful litigator oftentimes I would have people call me back whether it was one week, two months, six months, a year, people would always call me back because they were having problems. It doesn't set families on the path to healing. When you go through litigation. Now that's not to take away. Litigation is necessary in some cases, but it's really that one to 5% of cases where litigation is necessary.
Sara (05:54):
And I think that's what I wanted to really help people understand through. There's a series of episodes that are related to families who are separating and what the options are and how do you do that? And as you say, so few actually end up in court, but the process can cause more damage. And I think most of us are looking for how do we, how can we do this without losing control without becoming somebody we don't want to be? And it, it sounds to me a little bit, like when you started your practice, you were maybe, you know, ending up in a spot where you, you would've been successful. It sounds like you were a successful criminal litigator, but for you that didn't feel like a good fit.
Dave (06:46):
Well, I was a, I was a family litigator, but yes, it, it was, it didn't fit. It was like I had mentioned before it was that cognitive dissonance getting away. So when I was in law school, it's interesting because I took a clinical course in my very last year of law school. And one of I, we had to do a major project in that class and it was meant to be forward thinking and it was meant to be I, I remember professor rose boy who I had tremendous amount of respect for she, he wanted you to think outside the box. So my presentation was on holistic law. Okay. The idea that the lawyer is, but one component within this whole system and that the person is at the center, the client as we call them. But the, the person is at the center.
Dave (07:39):

The is at the center and you surround them with the people that they need lawyers, one of them, but there could be many other people. And, and lo and behold, that's what collaborative law really is. It's surrounding people with not just one professional a lawyer oftentimes can take things and just run with a it and say, this is what you need to do. And this is how you do it and we're going to go to court. And this is what happens. Sometimes the better advisor at the beginning may be a financial professional like yourself or a family professional, a social worker, a psychologist. When people come to us, us, oftentimes their emotions are getting the better of them. Usually one person is blindsided by the fact that they didn't see the breakup coming, even if all the indicators were there. So the emotional readiness usually one person sometimes of both is not usually there very rarely do you have, and this kind of blends itself to the, the kitchen table agreement or DIY very rarely do you have two people who are prepared mentally financially, emotionally prepared to kind of sit down and say, okay, this is what we're going to do.
Dave (09:01):
So why not surround people with, I, I mean, I'm not a counselor and I charge quite a bit per hour, right? To have somebody coming to me to talk about the emotion, when that wasn't necessarily a skill within my skillset, to help them through that, to get them into a ready space, to be able to deal with the legal and the financial. It, it just, it behooves me to be the one to try and do it yet. I found a lot of lawyers, did they? They felt that they could do it all. I don't need a financial professional. I know what I'm looking at. I know what I'm doing. And it was very formulaic and tended to be very black and white. They, they directed their clients to do things based on the way things they had done things in the past rather than being open. And that's the other thing about collaborative is you're looking at options, you know, and it really is. The, the focus is even though you have professionals there that are trying to serve both of you, the focus is on how can we bring the family through as a whole. And mediation is like that too. It's, let's focus on the, the problem and not on the person. Let's not make personal attacks. Let's even though there there's a myriad of, of emotions that go along with the breakdown of a family,
Sara (10:21):
Right. And when you talk about, you know, one person not being ready or both people not being ready, I've also found that for my clients that readiness can kind of come and go throughout the process. I've ive often found that sometimes the one that comes to me first, who's ready part way through. It's almost like they get cold feet. Yep. And, and I start hearing comments about, you know, that, oh, this is really the end of the relationship. Like this is really the end. And I, I think when you talk about having multiple professionals available to a family, and when somebody as an advisor, whether it's legal, financial, or kind of in that family social worker, psychologist space, almost having somebody who can remind the person, these are your goals. This is what you said to me over the last several months. These are your goals. Let's talk about this feeling, but remember we're, here's where we're moving.
Dave (11:34):
And, and you, you know, it's interesting that you bring that up, Sara, because I remember one situation where we did have a full team working with collaborative team working with a couple. And one of the things that concerned me about my client was they were agreeing to something on predicated on. If I agreed to this, now the chances of us getting back together later on are higher. And we really had to pull that person back in to, to talk to them and say, okay, I, and that may be the case. And, and I think that gets to your point a, about merit, marital mediation, and whether there's something in between, because we do, we look at things as black and white, but talking to that person, talking them through,
because when all this said and done out of all this, whether you have a lawyer or whether you have a mediator or other, are you doing it yourself?
Dave (12:35):
The key to everything is making decisions that are fully informed. Yes. And, and oftentimes what I found with when people were trying to do it on their own and, and this applies in everything in life. You don't know what you don't know. That's my faith favorite phrase. It's become my favorite phrase over the last year and a half is you don't know what you don't know. And so when, when somebody would walk into my office and for that first interview, you know, number one, what I would say to them is, listen, I'm going to give you a flat fee interview. And, and this isn't the interview. This is me interviewing you, but it's, it's that, but it's also, you interviewing me. It's very much you interviewing me. We need to make sure that there's a right fit between the two of us.
Dave (13:28):
And I would actually challenge people before they came in to say, I want you coming in asking me questions. Now, some questions may be very specific and I may not be able to answer them because I don't have all of the information to generate the options. But don't just sit back and I'm the lawyer and you're the client. And just blindly accept what I say. I mean, the client now in, in any area, but particularly family law. And I would have this conversation with them for sometimes 15 minutes, a half hour before they ever came into my office. And you should be a savvy consumer. You, you wouldn't go and buy a car there on a, on a car lot without having done some research on things, right? So that research can be researching the professional that you're working with, but it can also be researching the law.
Dave (14:26):
And you know what, it's my job to sit, help you sift through that. You know, sometimes people would come in and they'd be quoting American law or they would be quoting a law law from another province. And that was my job to help them help guide them on that to say, okay, this does work. It just doesn't work in Ontario and help inform them because when all is said and done, my view was, if I've done my job correctly, as a lawyer or any professional, we've done our jobs correctly, that person is fully informed. That person appreciates as many options as they can. And they're making that decision from a lens of knowing what's in front of them and right, why they're making that decision.
Sara (15:13):
And I love that about how you practiced, because I think that piece of, of really being informed and you having that legal knowledge, but then being willing to listen to what does this family need. And, and when I speak to claw, I, you know, I remind them regularly, I'm not a lawyer. And I say, but you are in the family law arena. So you need to, we need to stay within the bounds of family law, but there's room in there to find a space that works best for your family. And I think that understanding is so, so important because these people have the rest of their lives. I think you, it's so easy to forget in the middle of a separation that you really have the rest of your life. And I don't want my clients as much as possible having regrets, being bitter feeling like they didn't understand the implications of what they were doing. And I think the other thing though, that's been happening with the cost of, of separation with so much information being seemingly easily available. I don't know what your experience was with client clients coming in, who had already were really feeling like they had made decisions and they almost wanted you to rubber stamp it. Right. So clients who would come in and say, we've already made this agreement. Can you just sign it?
Dave (16:52):
Yeah. And, and that was always a challenge. I mean, the, the, I think the practice of most professions and all at some point, somewhere down the road a long, long time ago I think it was lawyers and judges had this concept of liability surface. So nothing was more frustrating than when I was working with other professionals and their worry was more about the liability of something. My view was this when I walked. So if somebody came to me, if it was a, I, I mean, this is the other thing that I think is often underappreciated. Many of us were trained in areas of intimate partner violence and course of control. So somebody coming in saying, I just want to rubber stamp, this should immediately raise a red flag. It doesn't mean that that's not, it won't end up there, but making sure that all of the information is out there, making sure that you understand where this person is coming from in making that decision.
Dave (17:59):
And again, when I would talk to people, it was usually a delicate conversation. It's I just want to make sure my job is to make sure that if you're agreeing to this, that you're agreeing to this with full knowledge of what's there with full knowledge of what the law, I would never say what the law does say or will say sure, what the law may say, right. Because it's, that's the other thing, oftentimes in this black and white world, we tend to look at things is one or the other, and it's not it's there there's usually a range. So setting those, I called them goal posts. I think many people did goal posts. This is, this is the range that we have. So it's, it is a challenge. When people come in and they want to do what they want to do, ultimately my view was if I've done my job correctly, if they wanted to agree to something that maybe necessa, I didn't necessarily think fit within that range.
Sara (19:04):
Yes.
Dave (19:05):
Ultimately it's their decision as long as they're not making this decision under. And that was always what I was always most cognizant of is duress or intimate partner violence or coercive control. And that's why they're making the decision. Okay. I alluded to the other situation where the person had the hope that they would get back together.
Sara (19:30):
Yes.
Dave (19:32):
That situation, the person ultimately went with what they wanted to do from the outset. But I made sure that when I was talking to them, that they addressed their own mind to, okay, is this why I'm doing this? And if the, an you know, ultimately that's an answer. That's only within them where I would get frustrated is the lawyer that say I can't have my client sign this because I don't agree with this.
Sara (19:59): Right.

Dave (20:00):
And that, to me, if I was a client or a consumer and family law, your, my job is, and it's setting those expectations right. From the start, Sara it's saying, okay, my job is to make sure that you have all the information. My job is to help you generate options, because you may only see option one or two, but there's actually 10.
Sara (20:20):
Okay.
Dave (20:22):
It's but it's not to twist your arm behind your back. If I think that what you're agreeing to is so off base and very rarely was that the case. Okay. But if, if it was off base, then, then I would have them sign an acknowledgement saying, you know, Mr. Moreno advised me of this. And he took me through these options. And, you know, I don't think I would usually go the distance of saying, he told me not to sign it, because I don't think that that's, but it's a matter of setting it up to say, I was surprised of everything I was fully informed. And yet I made this decision. Nonetheless,
Sara (21:01):
I think sometimes it can be hard for clients. I think, you know, you're having a conversation kind of lawyer to lawyer where the other lawyer might be saying, I'm, I can't advise my client to sign this because I don't agree with it. I think sometimes that's not what the client hears, because I think sometimes as advisors the things that we agree with, we kind of reframe as these things are bad or it doesn't work that way. And I know I have to be very careful with my clients sometimes about my personal beliefs really don't have any place in their plan. And I think sometimes though, as clients, especially when trust is very high, sometimes either the advisor is kind of indicating, well, you know, you should take this to court or you should fight over this because the law says this when, as you say, there's a range or in my world, you know, that you would never do things this way, or you would never, you know, get a mortgage at retirement or something like that. Like, I think we have to be very careful to make sure that we're connecting the advice to the client's situation.
Dave (22:26):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and you know what I think in that, you know, because I've been there Sara, in terms of we do as professionals, we, we often get focused and we, we take things in one direction and taking that step back and that the key there is right from the outset. I felt that I was successful with my clients because number one, I didn't build them for every single second that they occupied of my time. That's ridiculous. You know I talk about, I would have people in an initial consultation and it really, this initial interview, you, I would charge them one half of my hourly rate. And as soon as they walked in, they'd start, or at some point during the meeting, they'd often start looking at their watch and I'd say, yep, would you please stop doing that? Because it doesn't matter whether you take 45 minutes or whether you take three hours, it's the same. It costs you the same, no matter what, it's building that rapport and building that trust with people and, and people that disarms them. So they don't feel that they, and you can have genuine conversations and you can help start to help them set their own expectations. Because I didn't feel it was, I common on me to set their expectations unless they were, well, I want to walk out of here with everything,
Sara (23:58): Right.
Dave (23:58):
And I want the other person to have nothing and suffer. You know, you have to have the check with them at point to say, well, that's not realistic, but what I found was we didn't, if you do it correctly, you don't even necessarily get into those specific issues. In that first meeting, you're building that rapport. You're building that trust and it's, it's critical because then when I suggest, or when I say we need to get Sara involved, right. And you guys are going to go see Sara or you guys will see one of the family professionals. They trust that as opposed to why you saying this to me, you have to give them the permission to ask you questions and not as I've seen lawyers sometimes get is defensive. Well, I'm the professional. I know you need to listen to me. Yes. Well, that life doesn't work that way. You give them permission to ask questions and, and don't take it personally. And I've seen some lawyers do that. And I'm sure at some point in my career, Sara, I did that too, where you take it personally, wait a second. You're questioning me.
Sara (25:11):
Oh, absolutely.
Dave (25:12):
I'm the lawyer.
Sara (25:14):
I think we all have those moments. And, you know, I think it's so interesting that really what we're talking about is I think to get an agreement that really works well for family over the long term, right? You talked a little bit about clients coming back to you saying, you know, this didn't work. And to me it's that, that balance between the client needs to be firm enough on what they want and what they need, but they also need to be open to advice. Right. So, and I think as advisors, we need to be firm enough on, you know, in my realm of finance, I've had to say to people, I understand you want to keep the house, but in three years it looks like you're going to be short of money. And I don't know how you're going to solve that. Right. So it's that, that balance between me saying, I heard you here are my concerns, but as you say, ultimately, it's their decision. And, and I think ideally the client can hear me say that then really think about what am I prepared to do to keep the house, or can I let it go? And, and, you know, I've had clients do both, but I think it's that balance between you can't let go of your goals just because somebody else is saying, I don't see how that's going to work, but you also can't ignore good advice.
Dave (26:59):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, ultimately, I, I mean, there were agreements where, you know, I was concerned based on the information that was there or, you know, what maybe another professional had said in that context. And this is where again, when, when you're talking to people, what, what we do, you and I both do is we pose the, what ifs to them. So what if this happened, or what if this happened, there may be something unexpected that happens. What if there is a sudden death you know any, there are a myriad of things that can impact the situation. And again, if you have a person that is I is presented with all of the information and is making a decision, I don't believe that it's up to the, any of the professionals to say, Nope, I'm not and I've heard it from lawyers. My name is going nowhere on this, because then I'll be held liable.

Sara (28:03):
Right. I think that feeling comes from kind of how you've set up your practice from the very beginning.
Dave (28:12):
Yeah. And, you know, I, I think the number was increasing the number of, of professionals that were thinking like I do, was increasing. And hopefully, you know, I, I've a pause from the practice of law for about a year and a half now. And, and it looks like I'm probably going back in because you know what, when it comes down to it, I, I like to help people. And, and they're going through short of maybe a handful of other instances, they're going through the worst possible time in, in their life, in the breakdown of the relationship in, in the I, I would often how I would reframe it is I would call them a family and transition. I think that has a more positive connotation than breakdown of the relationship or divorce, you know, and again, this is something that we've seen the changes in the law lately particularly the divorce act in the, in the provincial legislation.
Sara (29:17):
Yes.
Dave (29:18):
It's about time after hundreds of years that we realize that words do matter. Yes. How, how, you know, custody and access putting a proprie interest in the child. You know, I, I did some interviews around the time that the divorce act came out the changes to the divorce act and, and we have nothing addressing domestic violence, intimate partner violence, and causes of control. I mean, I, I, to me that puts us in the dark ages and, and we needed to be more mindful. Now, one of the things that I've realized is in my I mediation and consensual dispute resolution and collaborative practice, I was far more in tune with that than I ever was, or would've been, had I been litigated. And yet what we were doing is putting people into a powder keg, a pressure cooker of court, because I always said, there's a V that's there for a reason. I know a lot of this sounds like I'm disparaging the judicial system and I'm not, but I do think that we needed to be more mindful of the fact that there are other alternatives that just because there there's acrimony between two people does not necessarily mean that we have to put them in the most acrimonious and adversarial realm. And that's, that's precisely what we did for a long time.
Sara (30:48):
Yes. And I think I, I talk to my clients a lot about, you know, the, the more insecure and uncertain we're feeling. We, we tend to get aggressive. Yep. Right. Or, or we tend to when we're feeling insecure, we can't see that the other person is also feeling insecure. I, I worked with one woman and it was not collaborative. So her husband was not direct my client. And she was very sure that he had been stealing money. So they, they had been together for a very long time. The separation was a surprise to her. He had been, I think, planning to leave for about two years before he said anything to her. So she was the one that was very much caught off guard. And there was, there was some money that had moved kind of in and outta bank accounts that didn't look quite right. And so I had asked for some additional information and he replied through the lawyers and I thought it was so interesting that in one of his emails where he was sent the documents we had requested, he said, right in the email, in our entire relationship, the responsibility of, you know, kind of the day to day, month to month bills and managing the money, fell to me. And I didn't know what I was doing. I did the best I could.
Dave (32:25):
And yet, and yet Sara, we we've seen it. It's very easy in those situations for people to slip in the most, into the most negative of emotions to, you know, in that situation, all of a sudden it goes from, well, okay, there was questionable financial moves made to all of a sudden he's stealing money. Right. And we go, we go to the worst and the worst. And that's why it's critical that when people are going through this, that they have, they have objectives people around them. People who maybe challenge those thoughts, but it's not even challenging the thoughts it's asking the questions.
Sara (33:09):
I was just so grateful that I ha I actually had that email because you're right. She did, she did keep going back to, he did this on purpose. He was stealing money and I would, I would say, remember that email, he sent that he didn't know either, because part, again, part of her stress was I'm I'm in my early sixties, I don't understand how to manage money. And now I have to do this on my own. And so it was so helpful that he actually had written that down. And I said, look, he doesn't either. So both of you through your whole relationship were uncertain. And now you're being asked to make decisions. And, and my role is to help you be as certain as possible so that you can say what you need so that you can make decisions. But I did have to keep bringing her back to remember. He said, he didn't understand this either. And I think you're right. It's so easy to believe the worst in the other person, especially at that moment.
Dave (34:18):
And, and you just gave a perfect example of I, how you empowered that person with the information that was available to then take a step back and maybe look at things a little more critically, as opposed to slipping into the emotion that, you know, what that just underscores why. In most cases that I was involved in because of the emotion we had family professionals, we had either a social worker or a psychologist involved to help with that. But it's, you know, it, it still goes back to when a person people have a fear. I, I found in my career, a fear of lawyers because their thought automatically was I'm agreeing to something that lawyer's going to undo it. And so there's, there's a grain of truth in that where, where people make certain decisions and, you know, I've seen lawyers say, Nope, you're not going to, to that.
Dave (35:28):
You, you will because a lawyer's mindset often, especially if you do litigation is I want for and that may not be what that client wants. They may, there may be one thing that's more important to them and they're prepared to sacrifice something else. And that thing may be important to the other spouse. A and, you know, again, it gets down to how having those expectations set right from the start. I mean, if so for those people who I'm not telling people to not, I think it's important for many, many reasons for people to have conversations, as long as they can be healthy and productive conversations as you going through this transition. I think it's important. I also think it's important that at some point you consult with a professional, but you as that savvy consumer, do some research, ask some questions make sure that they're a fit, ask them what their expertise is, ask them what their philosophy is on resolution or whether they're the type of professional that will suggest just running to court. Talk about how there's going to be communication oftentimes when I've seen. So when people would come to me after been with another lawyer, or sometimes it was another couple of lawyers before me what it came down to was there was a lack of communication between the lawyer. So I set that ground rule out from the start talk about I, and I think there's a growing trend to professional unbundling their services,

Sara (37:23):
Right. Can you talk about that a little bit more?
Dave (37:26):
Absolutely. So if a person came in, I, I would create what's called a limited scope retainer, and a limited scope. Retainer means you are hiring me for a certain purpose, not to do everything. The tendency would, would be for professionals say, well, give me $5,000 and I'm going to do everything again. As a consumer, you can say, here's what I want. And then as the professional, I say, okay, well, here's what I can do. I may need to, we may need to look at expanding this area, but unbundling services means if somebody wants me to take a look at a separation agreement, then I can do that. No, what I'll probably say is, well, I, I need to make sure that you guys have disclosed everything. So what are the documents that went behind it? But talking to the person about how did you arrive at this decision?
Dave (38:26):
And I think it is important not just for now, but going forward that within certain limits that people do exactly what they want to do. I mean, why, why did it become incumbent on us to say, no, you can't do that. It's incumbent on us to say, well, did you look at this? Or did you look at that? Or the law would tend to say, or could tend to say in the circumstance that this is what happens, but ultimately giving people the ability to do what they want to do. And I think this is where I think the future of family law will be shaped by the consumer. I mean, I know that you, Sara, you and I, when we did see, you know, I found that when I had younger client, right, they did more research. Right. They were, they were more familiar of things.
Dave (39:20):
It wasn't just, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm an older guy where, you know, my, my initial tendency may have been to say, okay, well, you're the professional, so I'm just going to go with what you say. And I trained myself that, okay, well, no, we can, can't just do that. You have to be able to ask questions. And I then in turn taught my kids, don't just accept something. As what it is, ask the questions to make sure that how that thought was formulated or that opinion was arrived at, was based on credible or information that falls within what you are thinking is too. So it it's, you know, it, it's this constant evolution of us growing. And I think, I think it'll be, you know, if I do step back into the practice of law having tried my best to empower people, to ask questions of me and of others.
Dave (40:24):
I did a lot of work throughout my career advocating for children and youth that were in the child protection system and also in custody and access. And especially within the child protection system, I, a lot of what those children, youth learn from me was how to advocate for yourself because you're not always going to have a lawyer on speed dial, right. Or somebody around. So be able to articulate and voice your concerns and ask questions. And that doesn't mean doing it in a disrespectful way. It means if something doesn't seem quite right to you, don't just it back and say, well, you know what, Dave's the lawyer he knows best ask why.
Sara (41:05):
Absolutely. I, I do have some clients sometimes say to me you know, I'll do whatever you say. And I say, right back to them, you are the ones that keep me up at night.

Dave (41:17):
Right? Yeah.
Sara (41:19):
And so with those ones, I, I find, I really focus on, did I ask them enough questions? Yep. Because, you know, you've said a couple of times you don't know what you don't know that's right. And I think that's, that's true of all my clients, whether it's a family who's separating or I just call the rest of my clients, my non separation families. You don't know what you don't know. And so often I will present scenarios to clients that, that maybe they didn't ask for directly, or I will ask, ask them questions that, that they might think, I don't know why you asked me that because I'm looking for, did I miss something or did they not know how to say something for so many reasons? I think in my world, people don't say a lot of things because they think it financial, right. If there's not a number attached to it that I don't want to hear about it. And I think that's so untrue if money wasn't emotional, I would have an entirely different career because nobody would need me for this long.
Dave (42:29):
But
Sara (42:31):
I think it is about you know, again, that balance between advising and having the experience, but also giving the client the space to say what they need to say and make the decisions that they need to make. And I think it's so interesting as we're talking about this, you know, we're talking about really the end of relationships that people thought were going to last forever.
Dave (43:00):
Yep.
Sara (43:00):
And then they didn't. And then I think as advisors, somehow we get locked into this feeling of you know, these people aren't getting along or they don't have enough money and it's going to be like that forever. Well, we don't know that. And the proof that we don't know that is the fact that they're in our offices getting separated
Dave (43:22):
Well, and, and, and you know what, oftentimes, you know, people have their experience or their opinions or their thoughts at that point in time are often formulated by those around them. And, and so, you know, you and I have talked about the Greek chorus. Yes. Those, those people around you who more often than not are well intentioned. And they, you know, they want to help somebody who they see is going through a painful moment, but sometimes the information that they partner, the advice that they give can be just as damaging because, you know, maybe you have somebody, maybe I've gone through a divorce myself. And I felt like I, you know, I got hosted in the deal. And so my, my advice to somebody else is going to be colored within that lens of this is what my experience is. So another other tip I would give to people is that when you're going through this, oftentimes there is somebody there's that one friend that you trust who will just give it to you straight, who will call you out when you know,
they, they don't think you're making sense as opposed to the, the sycophantic people who will simply say what they think you want to hear.
Dave (44:40):
Be very, very wary of those people. It doesn't mean that those people can't be part of your support system, but don't make them the central, because, you know, one of the things that we've seen you know, with the algorithms on social media, you tend to see information. We tend to gravitate towards information that affirms what we already believe, that confirmation bias. So we, we oftentimes, and especially when we're faced with emotional situ, like that, we end up in a situation where we only look for that information that, you know, that spouse was a cheating liar or that spouse was crooked or that spouse was never a good person. Right. And pro I mean, the other advice I would give is that if you don't have that one person in your life that can give it to you straight, then reach out, reach out to a professional, because if you're going to go down the road and you end up having to hire a lawyer, you want to make sure that decisions that you're making are being made with as clear ahead as you can possibly have. I mean, I always, or I often and said that there's, there's an, an element of mental illness that goes along with separating spouses. Yes. Right. And people are not their normal selves. And I, I, I certainly don't mean that in any kind of condescending way, but you're not yourself when you're going through that.
Sara (46:11):
No. And I think we can't, do you know what I mean? I, I think that as you say, that's not, that's not to disparage anyone, but it is the reality of the situation. And I think we discount that and, and we talk about people like we should be strong all the time, or we should be rational all the time and we should be, you know, somehow unemotional again, about this thing that, that in a different area, we hold up as, you know, kind of the ultimate success as a person that somebody wants to marry you
Dave (46:54):
Or, or, or how people appear on Facebook, because everybody on Facebook or, or Twitter or Instagram or anything else, they have a perfect life. It's it? You know, it's, it's, it's amazing because you and I have practiced our careers, having seen the impact of things like social media and, and just, everybody's worried that they're behind the ball that they're behind the family next to them, or that people have it better than them, you know?
Sara (47:23):
Absolutely.
Dave (47:26):
And, and it's, you know, so helping to set, you know, helping to set yourself. And like I said, talking to that particular individual who will kind of cut through the crap and simply say, well, no, you know what? I don't see things that way. I know that's not what you want to hear. And if not, then processing through it with the inappropriate professional, because then once you get through that, I think there's always been a rush that the day after somebody says, I want to divorce, you have to get lawyers and you have to right. Speed into a system as opposed to taking time. I mean, the down, when you transition out of a relationship, it's a process and it should be treated as such, not just a quick fix because decisions that you're making in the, the first few days after are probably not decisions that you're making a few months after.

Sara (48:26):
Right.
Dave (48:27):
So it, it's, it's important to recognize yourself, recognize your own emotions before you just skip in, because I'll tell you people when people used to come in kind of loaded for whatever, when they came into my office loaded for bear or simply it, it wa wasn't difficult for me as a lawyer to navigate them towards an acrimonious system.
Sara (48:53):
Right.
Dave (48:54):
And I, you know, I finally pulled the plug on that in my last, I'd say half dozen years of practice. I said, no, this is just, this is insane that this is where, that, that we're looking as a matter of first resort going to court, as opposed to a matter of last resort. And let's, let's take a breath and let's figure out a way, and let's see what people may need before they go down that road. And so, you know, when you talk about, I, I'm very, I'm interested to talk to you offline about things like marital mediation. Yes. And things like that as, as, as one of the steps on that continuum. Right. Because it's never one answer to the other, there's always a continuum. There's always a spectrum. You know, where one end is white and one end is black and then everything in the middle is some shade of gray. So,
Sara (49:48):
And I think as you brought up earlier, our words are so important. And I find times, even in the industry I remember it was a number of months ago now I got an invitation to a webinar where somebody was going to talk about estate planning after divorce. And I just found the description so hysterical, you know, she said, well, 35% of marriages end in divorce. And I thought, right, the other 65% end in death, like, can I stop marriages in this world? End, it's tragic. Right. It's just tragic. But I thought even as professionals, we should not be increasing the hysteria here and we should not be increasing. You know, the shame, the, you know, sense of failure. We shouldn't be doing that.
Dave (50:45):
No,
Sara (50:46):
I, and it's, I, I, I hate it when that happens.
Dave (50:51):
Yeah. Yeah. And it, it, it's unfortunate that said, Sara, it, it is a very lucrative industry. And, and oftentimes and, and oftentimes it's unknowingly. We, we end up in the, that situation where the language that we use, I, I really became so much more mindful of the language that I used when I sat down with people. Even, like I said earlier, changing the word separation or divorcing, or, or breakdown of the relationship, because that's, that's the legal term. Yes. To family and transition.
Sara (51:33): Yes.
Dave (51:34):
You know, normalizing a bad situation to me is something that can, can help somebody heal. Right? Some people don't want to hear that we've had those clients too, where sure. Somebody doesn't want to, to hear that. It's the, and, and oftentimes those are the, the individuals that were saying, okay, you know what, maybe you should be talking to somebody else and you need to, one of the things that you'll always need to do is process through it in some way, and you can do it in a constructive way, or you can do it in way. And recognizing that, but sometimes it's difficult. I, you know, I haven't, I haven't been in that position before. And I would Al always say that to people. I've never been where you're sitting right now. And I, so I can't even imagine. It's like, so you need to help me help you.
Dave (52:29):
Right. Talk about things. And you know, what, if it's something that I don't feel that I'm skilled or adept at at handling, then I'm going to refer you someplace else. And you know what, not to toot my own horn, but when I'm talking anybody who's listening who may be going through it, no, you want in a professional that you're working with and ask the questions. And if you feel that symbiosis between you and that other individual, and that was, that was something that I often heard from my clients. I, you know, yeah. I'm not happy about what what's going on or where things seem to be going, but I feel comfortable talking to you and that's as a professional, there's no higher compliment that can be paid than I feel I can trust you. And trust that if I don't think I can help, I will say, Hey, you know what, why don't we talk to Sara? And you know what, you and Sara can have a conversation. And me, I think it goes even beyond that, me as a professional, as a lawyer trusting the other professionals that we're working with. Yes. and that's, that's been ongoing challenge that I've seen as well, is that not buying into a system that, that holistic system to go back to my law school of days, that holistic system that really seeks to help the family through.
Sara (54:02):
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for this, Dave. I really appreciate your time and your experience and, and just your heart and your honesty for, for why you do this. And what's important to you because I think, again, as professionals, we spent way too long, not talking about that and talking about, you know, technical skills or, you know, in my old world, when I was managing investments, rates of return or in your KPIs, right. In your old world you know, court wins or, or decisions in your favor. And I think that it's not the goal. No, obviously all, you know, technical expertise is so important, but if I can't help a client apply that to their situation, or if I can't honestly listen to them and use the right technical expertise, I haven't done any good.
Dave (55:07):
No, no. And that's, you know, it's one of those things I, I found. So I, I've spoken a couple of times Sara, about collaboration and, and I'll end on this. And one of the things I'll be in a room full of professionals, and I'll go through a list of things. You know, what does collaboration mean? I start the Webster's dictionary definition then I, but you know, really when it comes down to it, you have to check your ego at the door, right, as a professional, check your ego at the door and sit back and listen. And you know what, let that person be vulnerable and help them, you know, help them get as much inform as they can help them, help guide them. Don't steer them, you're helping guide them, help, help them, help themselves navigate through what they're going through. And I think that's, we serve people a lot better than stepping in and saying, I'm going to solve this problem for you, because guess what, when we do that, they walk out of it and they lack those problem solving skills going forward.
Dave (56:16):
So it's why I, when I was litigating, I had people coming back a week, two weeks a month, six months later, I even have one time, one spouse that I had torched on cross examination. Come back to me asking if I could represent them. Because now the trial was done. Oh no. And, and they, and they felt I, I did an effective job and, and you know, it's, it, it, it's not pretty. I mean, I've, I have the experience of having seen what I've seen in court. And quite frankly, as a caution to everybody else avoid that. If at all possible, there are going to be the, those circumstances where it is necessary, but you know what, you lose all control when you hand it over to somebody else to make the decision. So, and you're typically not happy with the decisions that are made both of
Sara (57:08):
You. Right. Well, I think that is a good place to wrap this up. As we've both indicated you and I have a ton more things we could talk about. And so we're going to figure out how to do that. But for today, again, thank you so much for, for just giving all of my listeners the time and the space to listen to you and, and again, think through their own situation and, and how to sort through what they value and then how to get that.
Dave (57:38):
Well, thank you very much for having me, Sara.
Sara (57:48):
In life, we all have pieces scattered here and there. When you're starting to negotiate a separation or you're in the middle of one, it feels like there are more pieces unfamiliar and unknowable pieces and really, really public pieces that used to be private for, from time to time, we need someone who can cut through the noise. Someone who not only gets to know you as a person, but can also really show and make sense of your financial plan and not just the numbers, but what the numbers truly mean for you and your reshaping family, this relationship, and this plan belongs to you, not your planner. I'm McCullough. Thank you for listening to Sara. Make sense.
disclaimer (58:29):
The information in this podcast is intended for general information and illustrative purposes for advice relevant to your specific situation, meet with a qualified financial planner, lawyer, or accountant before making any changes to your situation. So arrows designations and licensing include certified financial planner, registered financial planner, certified divorce, financial analyst, and holding an insurance license.