Separating with Dignity

It’s one of life’s emotional landmines. 

When a marriage ends, people are often at their worst. Decision making is difficult. 

The process is no longer a showdown featuring hired legal guns in front of a judge.

In this episode of Sara Makes Sense, Sara talks with Family Law Mediator Jennifer Sanders.  Jennifer helps clients going through a separation. But she not only walks a couple through the difficult process, but also, when necessary, a post separation parenting plan. 

Sadly, many marriages have dissolved over the course of the pandemic. 

This timely episode is a starting point for those couples facing separation.

Jennifer Sanders can be reached at Sanders Mediation.
https://jennifersanders.ca/
Have a listen to Jennifer's podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/split-the-after-ever-after-podcast/id1539553779

Got a question for Sara? Send her an email at ask@saramakessense.ca and she might respond to it in an upcoming episode

Sara's website is https://www.wddevelopment.ca/ 

Transcript

Sara McCullough (00:01):

Yeah, <laugh>, I'm completely not ready. So let's do this thing. 

Sara McCullough (00:07):

<laugh> 

Sara McCullough (00:10):

We don't want lawyers, but we don't know what else to do. We started this, but now I don't understand it and I feel like it's not working. When you're negotiating a separation and you don't want lawyers. If you listen to the last episode of Sara Makes Sense, you might remember what I often tell my clients. I think we're genetically programmed to avoid lawyers. And in this series of episodes, what I want to make clear when we say things like that, what we're actually avoiding is a legal system that doesn't know us and doesn't care. We're trying to maintain control in what feels like an uncontrollable situation. We're trying to maintain some level of dignity, respect, and decency when we're hurt, angry and confused. In this episode of Sara Makes Sense, my guest is a mediator, a word, and a career choice that we may have heard of, but don't fully understand, and this mediator doesn't just work with people who want to end their marriage or their partnership. This mediator works in that space that we almost never talk about. The, ‘I don't want to get divorced, but I don't want to be married to you like this’ space. Today, Jennifer Sanders of Sanders mediation is with me. Welcome Jennifer. 

Jennifer (01:44):

Hi Sarah. Thanks so much for having me today. 

Sara McCullough (01:47):

I'm so glad you made time for this, I'm really excited for my listeners to be able to hear you talk about your role and why you've chosen it and so I'm going to let you introduce yourself and your practice. 

Jennifer (02:00):

Yeah. Thank you so much. I, uh, I'm very passionate about mediation. So any opportunity to, to speak about it, I do think it's such an important area. So I am a family law mediator. I work in Ontario, I'm based in the Niagara region, but I do, uh, virtual, uh, mediation with video conferencing. So I do have clients all throughout, uh, the province of Ontario. My main role with my clients is I do help clients who are going through a separation and sometimes I've already gone through a separation and then are rejigging their parenting plan. OK. So I help them look at the legal aspects. We do everything from collecting financials, um, going through property division and then working at a parenting plan and I write that up for them. And then the other area of my practice that you were alluding to is something called marital mediation, where I do work with clients who are in a pretty rough place in their marriage, but they're not sure that they want to separate, or they may be separating, but not necessarily to head for a divorce. They, they think a separation is necessary, but they want to give the marriage a chance. And so I do use mediation techniques in that situation as well. 

Sara McCullough (03:13):

Okay. So I'd like to start maybe a little bit at the beginning because I find when I'm talking to clients or perspective clients who have contacted me because they're separating, they often aren't clear on what a mediator can do versus working with lawyers. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, I think in some way we have this idea of if you're separating or divorcing, you know, you hire a lawyer and you go to court. And I think in a lot of ways, that's probably the least common way that that families separate, but that's kind of the picture in our heads. So can you just talk to me a little bit? So you mediate, you're working for both people? Just explain kind of how you work with people. 

Jennifer (04:05):

Sure. Yeah. And it's a great question because most people, I think don't understand mediation or what it's about. The calls that I get are often from people they, even if they know they wanna try using a mediator, they still don't really know exactly what it is. So the calls are sort of sounds something like I need to understand mediation, or I'm looking for a mediator. What is that? So, um, definitely it's an area that, uh, we still need a lot more education about an awareness about, so there's lots of differences. Um, when someone works with a lawyer, a lawyer's only going to be representing their interest. So they're going to give them legal advice just in their best interest and work with their client. It's often going to become adversarial because right away that communication between those parties really stopped and goes through the lawyers. 

Jennifer (04:55):

So there, even in a situation where it wasn't particularly high conflict, there's literally no opportunity for any sort of conflict resolution or, you know, finding sort of alternative resolutions to happen because now the communication is happening through lawyers. So with a mediator, I represent both parties. I begin by meeting with each of them individually, just to understand things from their perspective. So I always tell people I'm not interested in trying to figure out who's right and who's wrong. Uh, I'm not a judge or an arbiter. I'm not going to give them any legal advice, but really wanna understand what's important to them, what do they wanna see come out of this separation, what are some of their big concerns and their goals at a mediation, and then we start in joint sessions. So rather, so people are coming together right away and we're discussing things in real time, you know, not via email, but together in these sessions, I don't provide legal advice, but I do provide a lot of legal information. So I am trained in family law in Ontario and the divorce act of Canada. So I do let people know, you know, what typical legal precedent is, the different areas that should be included in an agreement. Um, and I help facilitate communication between them. 

Sara McCullough (06:15):

Okay. And so I'd like to go back just to, um, you've mentioned communication a couple of times in there mm-hmm <affirmative> and I think, you know, where you started. You're right, that traditional model of, um, you know, I hire a lawyer, my spouse hires a lawyer and then the communication doesn't happen necessarily between us, but it happens between the lawyers. Yeah. And sometimes some of the calls that I get from my, my separation families, because I work with families who use a variety of ways to separate. Sometimes the phone call is really just prompted by, I just opened this email and you know, why is it so hostile? <laugh> yes, because I didn't think we were there. And I think again, that traditional legal model, um, it, the lawyers can sound very inflammatory depending on how the lawyer works, the lawyer’s style. Um, one of my clients right now is working in a more traditional model and he certainly has a very traditional lawyer and we debriefed after a call and he said, I felt like I was just arguing with my own lawyer. Yes. And I had to say you were. Right. And again, it it's uh <laugh> um, and I think for them, it's really a, in a lot of ways, a personality mismatch, but I think when we think of that traditional separation model, it is all of a sudden the people involved are more separated. Yes. And somebody else is handling the communication. Yes. Um, I think, you know, my previous episode, uh, talked with Dave Moreno who practices family law, but in a more collaborative way. 

Jennifer (07:58):

I know Dave. 

Sara McCullough (07:58):

A more formally collaborative way. And, um, you know, there are some ways, again, that you can get a conversation happening so it doesn't feel like, um, somebody's email bombing you. <laugh>. Yeah. 

Jennifer (08:14):

I think that, you know, even in there are obviously some wonderful family law lawyers and there's many that I tend to work with that, you know, want to be more collaborative. They don't wanna be adversarial, but even in the best of situations, you are still communicating, like you said, via email, you're typically having your lawyer communicate on your behalf. Um, things are gonna take longer. Maybe that email, you know, you don't know what frame of mind the other person's in, when they're receiving that email or have they may interpret it. So those are even. Right. The best case situations when you don't have a lawyer who is very adversarial. And I definitely do have, you know, those lawyers are out there. I definitely do have clients coming to me who are literally scared after having consultations where things are fairly amicable with their ex, but they've happened to contact a lawyer who is very adversarial and advising them that, you know, they better not do this and they should do this and they better protect this and or else this is gonna happen. 

Jennifer (09:13):

And, you know, the person is just, you know, so scared of the entire situation, um, where they don't need to be. So I think for sure when, okay, we get in that room together in mediation, even just the timeframe of it. I mean, having to go, like, if you have a question or discrepancy, when you're working out agreements between lawyers that can take months of emailing sometimes to, Okay. work it out. Right. Where literally, like it's not uncommon for me to work out an entire parenting plan in one session because we're just right in the session having a discussion about it, I take them through the topics, I write it as we go. Okay. Um, so it's just efficient as well. 

Sara McCullough (09:53):

Right. So again, I think it it's that space where everybody's there. Yeah. And you're also there to almost, it sounds like interpret what they're looking for. And if one, person's saying something different than the other person, are you able to kind of clarify for them? 

Jennifer (10:13):

So, absolutely. I mean, that's also what I am, I'm trained in conflict resolution, so for sure, um, I get clients that are very high conflict. Okay. And, you know, they might be expressing things in an adversarial way themselves. Um, they may be asking for things that frankly, frankly, you know, are unreasonable within the laws of Ontario. Right. So you will get people sometimes making demands that aren't to the best interest of the kids or, you know, would result in an extremely inequitable, um, situation for them. So absolutely. I will ask questions, we'll figure out where that's coming from. And really it's about making sure that each person can clearly communicate their own issues and their concerns and then also at the same time that they're hearing the other person. Okay. So there's definitely a lot of different sort of tools in my toolbox of conflict resolution and I have people screaming and yelling all the time in mediation, it happens, but we figure it out <laugh> yeah. We figure it out. 

Sara McCullough (11:19):

Okay. Because sometimes when people are asking me questions, it seems like they've already ruled out mediation on their own because, um, they have the impression that the only way mediation is going to work is if they can be nice to each other. 

Jennifer (11:38):

Yes. I think that's probably the biggest, yeah. Misconception. Yeah. I, I think that's the biggest misconception about mediation that I get that all the time that people think that it has to be amicable. And in some ways I think, you know, the biggest benefit of the people that are gonna benefit the most for mediation are the people that are high conflict because they're the people that are going to, you know, possibly bankrupt themselves in court. They're gonna be hashing it out forever and, you know, they can get the biggest benefit for mediation. Um, I'm not a magician, but I'm trained in, in, you know, in conflict resolution. It's not uncommon that I have clients, you know, they wanna make it work, but they will start that session with, you know, the, ‘over my dead body’ phrase or yelling or saying, ‘I'm gonna court if you don't do this’. But when we unpack it, we figured out in, in most situations. 

Sara McCullough (12:30):

Okay. And I think probably, uh, the second hesitation that, that some of my clients talk to me about if they haven't chosen, how they're going to, um, kind of do the legal separation document. Sometimes one person will say to me, I'm worried about mediation because, you know, my partner just has a stronger personality or, you know, my partner, you know, I've actually heard my partner's in sales and I'm just, you know, there's this single person and I'm worried that my partner's gonna be the favorite one and I'm gonna kind of get run over by this process. Can you, 

Jennifer (13:16):

Right. 

Sara McCullough (13:18):

How do you handle that? Does that ever happen in your office? 

Jennifer (13:22):

It does. Yeah, it does. So a couple things, I definitely have clients that are concerned. Um, I've heard that as well. Right. He puts on a good show or she's very convincing and I'm worried that, you know, you're gonna be swayed. So a couple things, one, I see, you know, my response to that is, you know, you get to make the decisions in mediation. Like I'm not going to be telling you what you should do. So you really need to just be more concerned that you are not going to be swayed by them. Right. Like you are able to say yes or no, I'm not a judge, so I'm not gonna be saying, oh, I think he presented a good argument. He wins. Right. Um, so that's, you know, one side of it. And then it is also a big part of my job and I constantly do this throughout the process of making sure that there is a fair balance of power. 

Sara McCullough (14:09):

Okay. 

Jennifer (14:09):

So I do get those strong personalities, definitely. And sometimes I will, um, speak to one person individually or speak to them both individually, if I feel that someone is making a decision under duress or are just being so, you know, bullied and beaten down that they're making a decision that really is not fair for them. Um, and sometimes that looks like me speaking to them and just make, you know, getting a sense of, okay, are they fully informed of what they're doing? And in some situations where it seems like it could be headed in a pretty inequitable situation, I will encourage them just to get legal advice. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so to speak to a lawyer, just to make sure, you know, do you understand what your rights are in this situation, then if you're still happy to make this choice, then that's fine. 

Sara McCullough (14:55):

Okay. So again, I just wanna circle back because this actually came up in my, in my previous episode where, um, Dave Moreno was talking just about the ability to help a family where there has been, um, you know, either financial control, physical abuse, or just kind of that real, you mentioned power imbalance mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so there are times in relationships where, you know, we're just not being fair with each other for a number of reasons and where there has been a level of abuse. And can you just talk a little bit about, um, it doesn't sound to me like you gloss over that? 

Jennifer (15:45):

No, that's I think that definitely, if people are involved in those situations, they want to find a mediator who has experience and skill with, um, domestic violence and understanding screening. It should be part of any mediator's training, but some people have, you know, more experience than others. And when I spoke about those individual meetings, like that's part of why those are very important. And part of those meetings is to identify, is there mental illness at play here? Is there domestic violence? Is there financial abuse going on? So all of those things based on those meetings, then I will sort of figure out what makes sense in this situation. So I have had some situations where I felt, um, where it was the woman who there was some domestic violence I felt, and, and she had clearly explained that she had a good amount of agency. 

Jennifer (16:36):

She wanted to use mediation. She understood what her rights are. She had met with a lawyer. She felt like she would get the best outcomes in mediation. Okay. So we worked together to make sure that she had a safety plan. She spoke to the local women's shelter and got a safety plan. Um, she had already gotten legal advice, um, with a consultation from a lawyer. So making sure that, you know, the kids are safe, everyone is safe for the process, um, checking in as well during mediation to figure out, okay, are you in separate residences while mediation is happening? So it's not going to set off, you know, a potentially dangerous situation. But yeah, I think that, you know, it's really important to understand what mediation can do because often in these types of situations, which are predominantly women, um, they would be left in the court system with not many options. Right. Not having the resources, Right. To be able to fight it out in court. Um, so they can often get better outcomes through mediation. Um, but like I said, it, it needs to be dealt with quite carefully and with very specific parameters. 

Sara McCullough (17:48):

Okay. So again, I think just that idea of, um, keeping both people safe, mm-hmm, <affirmative> with the goal of letting the family kind of reshape itself now that they're not living together. 

Jennifer (18:05):

Mm-hmm 

Sara McCullough (18:06):

<affirmative> and I think that's been really important. I know with my work, sometimes I, I do work with both people and I think that's, you know, I, I think similar to you, I often get clients, you know, when I speak to them individually first, um, you can feel a little bit of, uh, some of their comments are leaning towards the, ‘can you please tell me I'm right’? 

Jennifer (18:33):

Yes. Right. Yes. 

Sara McCullough (18:34):

Can I be right? And can the other one be wrong? Mm-hmm <affirmative> and, um, but I think, I always tell them my goal for you is that both of you coming through this and coming out of this, it's important to me that you're both financially stable because financially stable parents are just better parents. mm-hmm <affirmative> But there's that idea of as much as possible giving everybody a safe space. Yup. Yup. No matter what's happened or which side you're on, so it's not about who's right and who's wrong. Yeah. It's about here's where you are. Yeah. And how do we as safely as possible get you from here to there? 

Jennifer (19:19):

Yes. And I think what I have been trying to incorporate into my practice more and more and more and rely very heavily on in these types of situations, which I don't know is happening with most lawyers. It's not my sense, but I'm not sure is bring in those other resources. So in some cases I will insist that, you know, we've, we've had this individual meeting, these high, you know, risk issues have been identified, so you're gonna make the safety plan and then come back to me, let me know. We're gonna get the kids into some counseling throughout this. We're going to, you know, I'm gonna insist that you do talk to a financial advisor, so we can also use mediation to kind of get those healthy supports in place. I do also talk about, you know, what support system do you have? Do you have family around like where's the childcare, so we can bring in a lot more of those resources to, so I think it does have potential to be a much more holistic approach to support that family and those kids ultimately, which is who we all care about, um, moving forward. 

Sara McCullough (20:25):

Right. Okay. And so you've mentioned lawyers in here a couple of times saying that you will recommend that sometimes depending on the situation that one or both people that are working with you meet with a lawyer as well. Mm-hmm <affirmative> Um, so can you just also talk a little bit about, um, to get to a assigned agreement? Do your clients always meet with a lawyer at some point? 

Jennifer (20:58):

They don't always, I think a lot of my clients they're using mediation because they don't wanna see lawyers. They don't, like in their mind, you know, lawyers are bad and they're not, they're, they're definitely not all bad. Um, but they're, my lawyers are bad. They're costly. They just, they think, you know, it will spiral if they go for lawyers, so they don't want to, but I always make it a part of beginning mediation and people sign a contract to mediate with me explaining that at any time in the process, you're encouraged to get legal advice. So it doesn't mean that you need to retain a lawyer, but you may pay them, you know, just for an hour long consultation and just explain your situation about certain topics. So for me, the most common ones are, if there's a lot of money on the table and particularly part of an agreement that's going to really have long term effects for someone. 

Jennifer (21:48):

So, something like spousal support where it's a very gray area, hard to decide, lots of factors. Um, I will often, you know, I don't feel, I always need to, it's part of my job making sure that people are making informed choices. Okay. And sometimes with spousal, people are doing very little research, they're not really considering enough factors and they're willing to decide on spousal. So at the end of the day, if they're insisting, then they can do that. But I will sometimes really strongly suggest, you know, go get some legal advice before you make some final decisions on this and then come back to mediation. So they don't need to stop mediation or retain a lawyer. Right. But just, yeah, just, just getting some legal advice. 

Sara McCullough (22:31):

Okay. So almost, um, in some ways a second opinion, but in some ways, just really an explanation of here's the legal system in Ontario. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> That governs kind of the, taking a part of a marriage because a marriage is a legal event, sometimes we forget that. mm-hmm <affirmative>, but it was a legal event up front and so to take it apart properly is also actually a legal event. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And because of that, we do have laws around that. Yes. But often I tell my clients, you know, it's the, the family law act is kind of like a big ballpark and there is room for you to move in there. Yes. But I need you in the ballpark. Please don't be outside of the ballpark. <laugh> 

Jennifer (23:18):

Yeah. Good. Exactly. Good analogy. And I, yeah and I do, I mean, to use that example again of spousal, I mean, we go through the spousal support calculator, we, we use income, we collect income disclosure, you know, we go through and look at what the ranges are. So I do, you know, let them know in mediation of what legal precedent is and kind of inform them. But yes, a lawyer would be more, um, giving that advice specific to them. So a lawyer might say, uh, I don't think you should do this this way. You should do it that way. Something like that. Okay. Um, to be really honest too, with my clients, like I rarely have clients come back and say, oh no, my lawyer said I should do this instead. Um, you know, it's not, it's more, I think for people's peace of mind and just to make sure again, that they are making an informed choice. 

Sara McCullough (24:08):

And I think that peace of mind part is, is very, very important. I know in the work that I do, families who are separating is about 30 to 50% of my work in any given year. mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so I also work with, with families who, who aren't separating and in planning, you know, if my non separation families intended to save $8,000 a year and they miss that goal for a couple of years, we can probably figure out how to get them back on track. 

Jennifer (24:41):

Right. 

Sara McCullough (24:42):

But in this situation, once an agreement is signed and assets are divided and support is agreed on, it's actually really difficult to go back. 

Jennifer (24:52):

Yes, of course. 

Sara McCullough (24:53):

And do that. And so I, I try to make that clear that, you know, again, in my non separation planning, we can often shift things around. We can, you know, figure out how to, okay, you missed this target, but now it looks like this. So we can still do this, but this is really a, a big, huge transaction that I don't want them having regret over later. 

Jennifer (25:17):

Yeah, of course. Yeah. 

Sara McCullough (25:18):

And I certainly don't want them to feel like I, I never would've signed this if I had known X, Y, and Z. 

Jennifer (25:26):

Yeah. Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> of course. Yeah. So me, I always kind of, I'm continually evaluating in all of my files and that's one of the sort of, you know, measures that I go by is like, okay, is this person well informed? Like, do they have all the facts? Is there more information that would help them make a better choice? You know, does it seem like they are considering the information? Um, so that's always a really big consideration of when I would advise legal advice or, you know, insist on legal advice or strongly advise legal advice, um, or just kind of talk about it a little bit longer. Sometimes I feel like we need to kind of circle back and look at the facts again and just make sure that the person is well aware of the choice that they're making. 

Sara McCullough (26:08):

Right. And do you find that, that your clients, um, again, this is a big process with a lot of emotion in it. Um, mm-hmm <affirmative> do you find that they, you know, you maybe feel like they're almost done and then somebody comes back and, and sounds like they're saying, wait, I don't think I like any of this. 

Jennifer (26:28):

It, that honestly has almost never happened because of legal advice, because I think, you know, we do a pretty good job keeping it, like you said, within that ballpark, so we're not, Right. You know, going crazy in one direction or the other. 

Sara McCullough (26:42):

Do you ever find though that people it's almost like they hit a point of overwhelm and they almost need a reminder of these are what you told me your goals were mm-hmm <affirmative> these are the decisions already. Are you still okay with that? 

Jennifer (26:55):

Absolutely. Yeah. That's one thing that we do in mediation. Right. We start identifying the goals, um, financial goals, plans for the family, plans for how you wanna co-parent and so sometimes yeah, we can get away from those. I mean, the nice thing about mediation is that it doesn't tend to go on a long time in mediation. My, uh, the vast majority of my files, we meet three times in joint sessions. Yeah. Okay. Which I think helps as well. So it's not a really long drawn out process. 

Sara McCullough (27:24):

That is good because I think the whole, the whole taking a part of a marriage or a partnership, I think for the people involved feels like a very long drawn out process. 

Jennifer (27:34):

I think that that's fair because I, you know, in thinking of a, a one file that I had last year and they weren't particularly high conflict, but they were talkers and they just, they ended up going five sessions, which again is, is unusual. Yup. Um, but by the end, definitely there's fatigue there. And I think when you've gone longer and you've gone past the expectation, so one of the people, um, one of the parties thought that they were gonna be done in like two hours. Right. They just thought it was gonna be much shorter. There's fatigue there where I do have to check in as a mediator cause then you do get people sort of saying, okay, whatever, just, just fine, just do it, I just wanna be done. Right. Um, and I have to make sure I'm checking in, in those situations as well. Cause we never, when everyone says that my radar goes on, right. We can't have someone making a decision just because they're fed up. Um, so sometimes we'll take a little break or I'll just make sure I'm checking in enough to make sure they really understand what they're doing. 

Sara McCullough (28:29):

Okay. So now I'd like to talk a little bit about the it's come up, uh, a couple of times, this idea of marital mediation, mm-hmm <affirmative>. So I think, and you and I have talked about this, um, you know, we're a very black and white society. 

Jennifer (28:43):

Mm-hmm <affirmative> 

Sara McCullough (28:44):

And I think we find it very difficult to, um, either if we're the ones in the situation, talk about it, or if we're close to somebody in a situation it's hard to, um, listen to somebody when they're saying, you know, my marriage is in trouble or my relationship is in trouble. I can't stay like this, but I don't want to divorce. I think people often feel pushed, Right. To either stay together. So kind of shut up and, and just deal with whatever you're dealing with or get divorced. Mm-hmm <affirmative> Because I don't wanna hear you whine about this anymore. Right. <laugh> And I, I think, um, I think that idea of is there, could we create a diff as advisors, can we create a different space for couples so that they can truly decide what's best for them and what's possible for them? 

Jennifer (29:50):

Mm-hmm <affirmative> I think you're right. I think there's not a lot of resources. There's there is marriage counseling, of course, in relationship counseling, but which can be life changing for some people. Um, I think to talk about marital mediation, we kinda have to talk about that for a second because sort of, sort of what marital mediation isn't. Um, so I think with traditional couples counseling, marriage counseling, there's a few things that happens. One is that really need to find, um, a therapist that is a fit for you because they all do have different approaches. Yes. Different techniques, right? With some of them you're gonna be meeting dozens of times. Um, with some of, you know, in talking, talking, talking, some of them is going to be more acute issues. Some of them are gonna give you homework. Some are gonna tell you books to read. 

Jennifer (30:38):

Like they all have their different ways of working. I definitely have had clients come to me who had therapists, who told them their opinions outright, you know, you're wrong, you shouldn't be doing that, you're wrecking your marriage, you should be doing this. So, and they felt that they okay had not understood the situation. They, they didn't really get it right and, and kind of made it worse. So again, similar to lawyers don't wanna bash relationship counselors at all, there's amazing ones there. But I think when couples are in these really brutal situations where they just need a little bit of hope and they just wanna feel like they're making some progress and some steps forward, um, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it can be, um, frustrating in marriage counseling because often that doesn't happen quickly or you may not find a good match for you right away. Right. 

Jennifer (31:26):

So I say that marriage counseling probably still needs to happen. Relationship therapy still needs to happen, but mediation is a way that, again, it goes back to communicating. So looking at, okay, let's, let's pick some of these key issues. What are you fighting about? Like, let's pick one of these key issues. What's your goal here, is the goal to get along, is the goal to co-parent, is the goal to have an amicable separation while you figure out what you wanna do? Like we figure out the goals and then we do figure out we, again, going back to communicating, so helping make sure that each person can communicate their needs, what they're upset about what their issues are. And then they're also being listened to. So that's a right big part of it. Right? So in typically, I mean, I meet with people all the time where they will say to me, you know, I've tried and tried and tried, I've done every single thing I can about, you know, a certain issue. 

Jennifer (32:23):

And then I meet with the other party and they say, you know, they do nothing. Right. They ignore it, they haven't done anything. Right. So we just, it's just, this it's a communication issue. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so it's, it's so eye opening, even in some of those first sessions, just being able to have a little bit of clear communication about whatever the issue is. And then in marital mediation, we set some really clear goals. So if we take an example, let I'm sure, as, you know, Sara, lots people find about money, that's one of the most common things. So let's say a couple is, you know, they're constantly fighting about money. Budgeting. Someone spends too much, someone's too frugal, whatever. We spend time talking about that. Right. Can you explain why you're upset about this? Or why do you need a budget? Why is a budget important to you? 

Jennifer (33:15):

And we really have that communication. And then I help them both decide. So it's not me imposing their goals or boundaries on each other, but they both decide. Okay, what about, what would it look like if you made a budget, when would you feel comfortable doing that? How should that happen? By when should that happen? How do you wanna sit down and do that? And they set the goals and then they decide, you know, their own sort of homework and their own sort of goals and steps and markers and what those are going to be. I, uh, document that in progress notes. And then we meet again and we look at, okay, how did it go? You know, you agreed to do a budget, did you do it? And if you didn't do it, let's talk about why not. Um, yeah. So I think that in marital mediation, what, what tends to happen is this very clarifying for people who are in that super mixed up space of not knowing, is this marriage worth saving? 

Jennifer (34:13):

Is there something wrong with me? Is there something wrong with the other person? You know, is it better to stay for their kids? Because I feel like what tends to happen fairly quickly in marital mediation is that either they will start to get some pretty clear steps forward. So in the financial example, the budget will get made. Right. And they'll have a little win there. Right? Okay. We, we made the budget, we had a few hiccups, but we did it. And, and we both had parameters we agreed to, or what happens is the budget didn't get made. And one person has no intention of making that budget. And one person is really not in it. And sometimes that is for reasons of an addiction or a mental health issue, or one person really is done. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, they're not, they're not in it. So I do find that marital mediation can be very clarifying, um, when people are in that stressful spot. 

Sara McCullough (35:10):

Right. And I, I, it seems to me because I have worked with some couples in that spot. Um, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it seems to me, one of the important things is that they have a professional who's willing to let them not know what they want. 

Jennifer (35:30):

Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, mm-hmm <affirmative> right. 

Sara McCullough (35:31):

And is willing to, um, let them be in this ‘I don't know’ zone. 

Jennifer (35:39):

Yup. That's important and, and that can be part of the discussion too, right. Like, okay. Do you wanna give this three months or six months? And what do things need to look like for you in that time? Mm-hmm <affirmative> and it's something that they both are a part of. Right. So it's not me. I am really a neutral party helping them facilitate. So my style or my fit for them, as long as I'm a skilled mediator is not as important as it would be when choosing a therapist, you need a good mediator, but it's really, each of you making those choices of what is best for you. 

Sara McCullough (36:19):

Right. I just, again, I think we're, we want people in, in one bucket or the other bucket, we want them married or not married. Yeah. And I think sometimes there is just that third space so that they can truly decide what they want, what's possible. Um, and then again, make a decision knowing that they've really looked at all of the options. 

Jennifer (36:44):

Yes. Yeah. And I think that's a really important point too, because a lot of people are not protected or not aware during a separation and a, and a separation goes south a separation that could be helpful for a marriage. So if people are saying, hey, we do need space. It's usually not because there aren't parameters set. We don't under, you know, neither party understands like, well, okay, are we, Right? Are we seeing other people now? Like, is our marriage done? Are we, are we having date night once a week? Are we going to count like, what is happening here? So, Right. You know, if we set parameters of like, Hey, we're in a really bad spot, we wanna make it work. Here's what we are agreeing, we need to do to try to make this work and we're gonna reevaluate it this time. So it kind of just lowers that tension level and lets people, like you said, kind of live in that gray area. 

Sara McCullough (37:39):

Is there anything else that we haven't talked about today that feels really important? Um, or, or is it is something that you deal with often? Is there something we haven't covered yet? 

Jennifer (37:51):

Ah, good question. I think honestly, that we did talk about that really biggest misconception of people just thinking that there's all these reasons why they can't use mediation. And I think that I'm always surprised when people at least don't try it because even when you look at the difference in cost, um, to going the lawyer route or to even trying mediation, I was just talking with a colleague about this yesterday that, um, even to go through, most of my files from start to finish are like the ranges between $2000 to $4,000 total, start to finish, completely done. 

Sara McCullough (38:28):

Right. 

Jennifer (38:29):

For both parties total. Right. So you're never going to have fees like that using the legal system. Fees that low. So I feel like it's worth it to even just try. Um, even if you're, you know, you don't have high hopes for mediation, it, it makes a lot of sense even to just try it out and see if it would be a fit. Um, just because the time and cost, uh, risk is so low. 

Sara McCullough (38:55):

Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> Well, I think that's really helpful. And I, I'm really hoping that this gives my listeners a sense of, you know, what's possible rather again than defaulting to we need lawyers and this is gonna be awful. <laugh> 

Jennifer (39:11):

Yes. Yeah. It doesn't have to be awful. I, it's, you know, I, it wasn't me. I'm not gonna take credit for this, it was a mentor that I worked with, but, um, she had a quote that I guess wasn't hers either that, you know, don't cut what you can untie. Yes. Right. You, you loved each other at one time you had, uh, children probably with this person, you, you had a romance, you fell in love, you did have a marriage. And to be able to, you know, mediation is gonna give you the opportunity to end that with some dignity. Right. And, you know, be able to move forward, whether you have a new relationship, you wanna move forward, you wanna move forward. Co-parenting you, it's hard to do that when you're leaving behind a flaming wreckage, right? Yes. 

Sara McCullough (39:55):

You wanna 

Jennifer (39:56):

Think about your own future goals and to be able to end that in a dignified way, in a peaceable way. Um, and I do see it all the time. I see people who there's been affairs, um, there's been abuse, there's been a lot of hurt. Um, but still, you know, they can, they can get through it in a dignified manner. 

Sara McCullough (40:17):

Yes. Yes. And I love everything you just said, and it's gonna be really interesting because you have not heard me record the opener yet, but you use most of the words that I have for my openers. So thank you so much. Okay. <laugh> And again, thanks for your time today, Jennifer. I really appreciate you just explaining why you do what you do and, and how it can be helpful for families. 

Jennifer (40:44):

Thank you so much, Sara, it was a joy. I really, like I said, I'm so passionate about this topic and um, yeah, I love to speak with people about it. 

Sara McCullough (40:59):

In life we all have pieces scattered here and there. When you're starting to negotiate a separation, it feels like there are more pieces, unfamiliar and unknowable pieces and really, really public pieces that used to be private. What I hope you took from today, if you're in this situation or, you know, someone who is, there is professional help available wherever you are. Where you don't end up shoot up by a system, where you can find the space to figure out what you want both individually and as a couple and how you're going to get from here to there. From time to time, we need someone who can cut through the noise. Someone who not only gets to know you as a person, but also can really show and make sense of your financial plan and not just the numbers, but what the numbers truly mean for you. This relationship, this plan belongs to you, not your planner. I'm Sara McCullough. Thank you for listening to Sara Makes Sense. 

Disclaimer (42:00):

The information in this podcast is intended for general information and illustrative purposes. For advice relevant to your specific situation, meet with a qualified financial planner, lawyer, or accountant before making any changes to your situation. Sara's designations and licensing include Certified Financial Planner, Registered Financial Planner, Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, and holding an insurance license.