How to “Project Manage” Your Financial Plan

Sara Makes Sense Show notes Episode #21
 Finances are personal. When it’s your money, financial plans are very personal. What if you took some of the emotion out of your financial equation by looking at your portfolio through the lens of a project manager? In this episode of Sara Makes Sense, host Sara McCullough talks to expert project manager Gabriele Maussner. She talks about tackling big plans one step at a time.   

Got a question for Sara? Send her an email at ask@saramakessense.ca and she might respond to it in an upcoming episode

Sara's website is https://www.wddevelopment.ca/

Gabriele can be reached at:
Gabriele Maussner-Schouten, MBA, PMP, BCAP
Redefining how People and Projects Succeed
416-809-4723
gmaussner@outlook.com

Transcript

Sara McCullough (00:00:02):

2022. It's here, and right now with COVID and all, it kind of looks a little bit like 2021. But with the new year comes new goals, new challenges, and new opportunities. Did you make any resolutions? Managing money better is often in the top three most common new year's resolutions. Huh? The other part that I bet is most common, but not really said, is actually managing my money better because I've said it before, tried it before and I feel like a failure. So what would be possible if you did manage your money better? What does that look like for you? Maybe a new job, maybe a new home, a new car. We're recording this episode on January 17th. Statistically, if you made the managing money better resolution, you might still be trying to do it. If you knew what ‘doing it’ looked like. If you're trying to manage your money better, you're probably budgeting, filing stuff in a spreadsheet, spending less, saving more, something like that. 

Sara McCullough (00:01:16):

You're still a little fuzzy. Statistically, if you made a new year's resolution, any resolution, you've probably given it up by now and you're in the ‘ignoring it’ phase. The denial phase resolutions are stupid, who even makes them? What matters is the choices that I make every day. So why am I so excited about this episode when I just talked about all those resolutions that get given up? Because we're talking about how to change your relationship to the project that is you and your money. If we approach it that way, from a different angle, with a different mindset, watching for different pitfalls, that's the opportunity to get the change that you want. The change that makes different things possible. That lines up the time spent, energy used, and dollars committed in a way that gets you the outcome you wanted. More peaceful, relaxed moments, more certainty in all of your financial transactions, more focus and attention on people and things that matter to you. It's time to talk money, not the nitty gritty dollars and cents. What I mean is - a money plan. A roadmap for the resources you'll need to pay for the items we need to get to our goals. I ask this question when we launched, ‘Sarah Makes Sense a year ago, and we're talking about it again today. Do you have a financial plan? Do you know what a financial plan looks like? And how is your relationship with your financial planner? Do you have any of the above? I'm Sara McCullough, welcome to season two of Sara Makes Sense. 

Sara McCullough (00:03:01):

Before I introduce our first guest of the new season, I want to share a shift in my conversations with clients in the last few weeks. All through my career, I've worked with families - parents, siblings, adult, children - recently the shift in conversation, I'm hearing less about dollars and cents and more upfront conversation about the relationships between family members. So I'll give you a couple of examples. Some of my longer term clients asked me to help with family members who had hit a financial crisis and they said we're willing to help with dollars, but we aren't sure about the best way to do that. The best way for us and the best way for them. Should this be a gift? A loan? Should we co-sign a loan for them? Help us talk through what's the best for us and for them. 

Sara McCullough (00:03:56):

Another one of my long term families contacted me before Christmas and said, we're gifting money to our adult children. You know them, they trust you and in addition to this money that we're gifting them, we would like to gift them planning time with you so that they can work out their own goals for this money and feel comfortable managing this gift. So that it truly is a gift to them and not a stressor or a burden. Some of my newer clients, they're in the middle of several large changes. They need to transition a family business to the next generation, they're transitioning the focus of the business, the parents are ending a marriage, and then moving into financial independence and they feel like there's an argument waiting in every conversation, because that's been their collective experience over the last five years with each other. So I've had four separate conversations with four different family members. 

Sara McCullough (00:04:56):

And they've all said the same thing to me about the importance of the same piece of the family business and the importance about preserving the relationships and strengthening the relationships between them. And so it was interesting to me that they came to me saying, ‘Sarah, we've got these differences that we can't resolve’ and they all have the same primary goal. And so that's where I really started thinking about what can a financial planner do and what should a financial plan do for the client? I think the answer to that is strengthen what's important. Family and relationships. By organizing and explaining what's possible with money, time, and energy that you already have. And so these three examples all involve change. And that brings me to our guest. She's a polished professional, a project manager who can thoroughly walk her way through change and more importantly, make it work. So I want to welcome Gabriele Maussner-Schouten. Gabriele has an MBA. She has the project management professional designation. She's a business coach practitioner. Gabrielle, thank you for being here. 

Gabriele (00:06:13):

Thank you so much. I love the introduction. 

Sara McCullough (00:06:17):

Thank you. So I think our listeners may have a fuzzy idea of projects and project management. Um, I'm sure we've all had the friction of an employer changing a process, having new software dumped on our computers, uh, self-employed listeners have done a business plan for projecting income, costs, et cetera. You and I have talked about our own business plans and our own sticky issues. <laugh> Um, so I'd really like to start at the beginning. Can you just define a project and talk about why we need them and why this whole concept is important? 

Gabriele (00:06:56):

So project in its very essence is about change. It is about getting you from where you are right now to achieve your goal. And in most cases, that means that we need to work with people. And this is where I always find project management becomes so interesting because it is not just about how we think about, uh, this project, but also on how our partners, our colleagues, any other stakeholders, kids think about this project. And so for me, it is always important. The very first part of project is important is to do the planning. And I, I like to quote Taylor Swift. And Taylor Swift is, she was saying, well, you can have the best plan, but it might not work out that way. And, and that is true. Mm-hmm <affirmative> but just the, the process of intellectually thinking something through helps you to react and to be more proactive when your plan is changing.

Sara McCullough (00:08:07):

And that's so interesting because I think even just your, your title, the, and the words we use when I, if I had to visualize project, if I had to draw it out, I would probably draw a box. Do you know what I mean? Like, it feels like there's this box and, and everything's already in the box, and you just get delivered this box. And I, I, I do remember at my last firm that I worked for, they did a number of projects in the time I was there. And sometimes somebody, myself or somebody else would ask a question as they were going through and explaining, you know, this is what's gonna happen. These are the changes we're making. And sometimes somebody would say something about, well, you know, this was an important part of my day before, and I don't see it here, or our clients ask for this often, and I don't see it here. And sometimes the response that you get is, ‘well, that's outside the box’. Do you know what I mean? Like, like, like almost like we already have the project already done. <laugh> like, don't, there's no more room to discuss what's in and what's out, even though the title of the project was, you know, how to make this process more streamlined. And so you kind of feel like, well, how is there no room to, to give feedback?

Gabriele (00:09:20):

<laugh> 

Sara McCullough (00:09:20):

Is there no room to say, I, I don't understand. Or, or, you know, and I, I, I don't know if that's how it feels to you as a project manager or if that's, you know, an older idea or, or how that idea came about. But yeah, I think I'm not the only one who feels that way when they hear the word project. 

Gabriele (00:09:45):

And you are absolutely right. And, and this is what I'm fighting all the time is, uh, quite often when I, uh, tell people that I'm a project coach and they're saying, oh, ‘on time and on budget’. And I'm thinking it's at least about on time and on budget. It's really not what this is all about. It is about creating value. It is about making something better. And what I like to refer to is, is a learning journey. And when you start a project, you have certain assumptions and you have certain goals. And I would, I would almost venture to say the best projects are when the initial project plan is at the end, what you achieve is very different, but it has a lot of value. 

Sara McCullough (00:10:40):

Okay. 

Gabriele (00:10:40):

And, and I think this is something we have to give it credit to the journey. And even the Project Management, uh, Association and Institute is coming around to this, is that we cannot put projects into a box. And so what I, what I like to, uh, challenge us all on and is the very first part of a project is that we talk about why are we doing this? What is so important, what is the purpose of this? And to start off with this, actually with that, uh, feeling of, uh, urgency and need that we need to improve something, we need to do something. 

Sara McCullough (00:11:26):

Okay. 

Gabriele (00:11:27):

And in our complex world is quite often, or in the business world we put, uh, in, okay, we are doing this project. 

Sara McCullough (00:11:35):

Mm-hmm 

Gabriele (00:11:35):

<affirmative>, but then as we are going more through are planning process, and as we are learning more about what we actually want to do is we actually figuring out there's perhaps a different way to approach this, or what we thought originally is not really what we have to do is, and we have to do something else to reach our goal. 

Sara McCullough (00:11:56):

Okay. So if you, I, I would imagine a lot of business projects start with, um, saving time and money. Yeah. Right. We would like to be more efficient. 

Gabriele (00:12:08):

And I like to dig deeper in that. So what do you really want to do? 

Sara McCullough (00:12:13):

Okay. So would you let a client, uh, for lack of a better word, get away with that? 

Gabriele (00:12:18):

No. So, so this is where you need to drive deeper and saying, so where do you want to be more efficient? And why do you need to be more efficient? And the, the exploration of the ‘why the purpose’ and what you truly try to achieve is so important. And I would say that is what anchors a project the most. 

Sara McCullough (00:12:43):

Okay. In your experience, if, if you start a project and, and that's the only, um, goal you are given, it's not going to work well? 

Gabriele (00:12:56):

Mm-hmm because there is not enough purpose. There's not, if you say to employees, oh, we just want to, uh, save money, well, that doesn't resonate with people, especially these days. It doesn't resonate. Right. What resonates is, is there perhaps a learning opportunity is if we make this more efficient, I can focus on something else that I'm actually far more interested in. 

Sara McCullough (00:13:20):

Okay. 

Gabriele (00:13:20):

So what is the deeper reason on why we are doing something? And what does it mean for me? What is the gain in there for me? And why am I looking forward to, uh, being part of this project? What is in there at the end that I can say it makes me feel proud. I can focus on the things I want to focus on. Um, I can see I've learned something. Learning is, is huge, or it gives me more time. 

Sara McCullough (00:13:52):

Right. So you're really, um, I think, again, that maybe it's an older idea of, of that delivery from, of projects in a box, from the top down, and everybody down is just gonna buy in and do the things in the box. You're saying in your experience, that doesn't really work. And so the other thing I heard in there was you're really dealing with the company as a whole. Like, it really just includes everybody. Who's going to be affected by this project, not just executives, not just the financial statements, not just so you really are looking for, how does this affect everybody and how do we talk to everybody about this? Almost so we get buy in, but it doesn't sound like you mean that in an artificial way. I think sometimes, um, we've all been delivered something, and you're thinking, you're saying you care about my feelings, but you don't really.  

Gabriele (00:15:00):

Yeah, <laugh> and, and Sarah, I think what's so important in this is too is, uh, sometimes what we are starting out, what we want to do is as we dig deeper, we think, holy moly, this is much bigger than I ever thought it would be. And if I really think about this, I cannot tackle all of this at the same time. It is perhaps too much change, it is, it is perhaps too risky. Let's break this down into much smaller pieces. And, and one item that is part of change management, that is part of any change initiative of anything is, is breaking something down into smaller pieces. So when you think, okay, you want to be more efficient, just what does that actually mean? Mm-hmm <affirmative>, and as you are breaking it down into smaller pieces, and you are asking more of these questions is first of all, you are involving different people, you're getting different perspectives, but you also start to understand, well, there are some areas that are far more important than others. And, and what do I really want to tackle in? This is what is truly most important for me, because quite often is what we find is if projects are too big,

Sara McCullough (00:16:19):

<laugh> 

Gabriele (00:16:19):

Yeah. Then we are very keen at the beginning and we start running, we think, oh, yes, this is great. And, and, you know, perhaps even you have a mission statement and then after six months, it's like, holy moly, this is so big. And then there are more initiatives and then it fizzles. 

Sara McCullough (00:16:35):

Yes. 

Gabriele (00:16:36):

And this is when we get this idea of the flavor of the months, the flavor of the year, and, and we are not following through. And so the, that initial idea of breaking it down into smaller pieces helps us, what do we really, what can we commit to? But when can we commit to everybody else? And, and is this truly achievable? 

Sara McCullough (00:17:02):

So you're saying even when you start a project, so you've started the project you've gotten through, um, the, the stock phrase of ‘we'd like, you know, to be more time and cost efficient’, and you you've gotten to some goals you're saying even then, sometimes you don't have a full ‘here's what we're doing, and here's how we're gonna do it’. You're saying there's still maybe some, some flex in there, or, or you may go back and say, listen, you know, we talked about these three things, but as it turns out, these three things are actually 18 different things. And, and can you, uh, narrow the list or can, 

Gabriele (00:17:41):

And that shape shifting takes for so long and just think about it any time you do something for the first time, how good are you when you do it for the first time? <laugh> Not that great, right? Because it's, that 

Sara McCullough (00:17:55):

Might just remain. 

Gabriele (00:17:56):

It's like doing it for the first time. You have no muscle memory, there's nothing in there that makes you efficient. So you have to be patient with yourself. And, and what is so important is, and that's why I don't really like the word box because we should never have a box because we always wanna poke holes in it. Right. So we want to have it kind of open, but we also wanna say is, what is that next step? And you want to commit yourself to that next step and, and that what you need. And this is again, breaking it down into smaller pieces. And you're saying, okay, for that next step, I need three people and it's over two weeks and we want to focus on a certain area and we want to drive it forward. And then once we have achieved, this is a, it's a pat on the back, we actually did what we said we would do. 

Gabriele (00:18:53):

We've learned something, what did we learn? And perhaps you learn, we don't want to go in that direction. Great. So then, you know. But I'm sure you also learn on where do you want to go next? Okay. And as you are formulating this project, and especially, I would imagine a lot of your clients doing something for the first time, and when you do something for the first time, it's never a hundred percent perfect and you need to plan all these incremental steps. And these check-ins, are we still on the right track? And the check-ins go against that overall purpose vision. Why am I doing this in the first place? 

Sara McCullough (00:19:35):

Right. Do you think, do you ever find that there's some tension, you know, a few minutes ago, I heard you say two things, which, and I love both of them, but I think part of me hears them as a contradiction. You have to decide on your next steps, but we still haven't fully decided where we're going. And I, I think sometimes, um, because I often find when I'm, I'm doing a comprehensive plan with a client, that we end up exactly there and sometimes the client I'm focusing on this one area. Right. So, so we've talked about making some changes in how you're, um, you know, managing say your day to day bank accounts. And I say, this can take six to nine months to sort itself out. If it's not working, you're gonna let me know. Um, but then I find they will bring up in that same meeting. 

Sara McCullough (00:20:29):

But what about this? What about this? What about this? So almost like I, I heard you say that we need to do this change first, and I want a clear plan for this, this, this, and this, even though intellectually, I know all those things depend on me getting the first step down <laugh> right. So there's that almost that tendency to like leap ahead so that we've got certainty. Sometimes even as we know, that's not gonna get us what we want. Like, do you ever find that, um, you know, I, every once in a while you see those articles about change and, and just how often it fails. And, um, even when it's, uh, I saw a study once on clients who had had people who had had heart attacks and depending on the cause of the heart attack, they left the hospital with this list of things that they needed to do differently, right? Eat differently, exercise, more, stop smoking, whatever it was. And nine months later, 90% of the people have made no change. And, and one of the discussions I, I heard on that study that, you know, the presenter said, so basically we're saying 90% of us would rather die than change, right? And I think, I think sometimes that's true. 

Gabriele (00:21:46):

Yeah. And, and this is such an interesting area, Sara, and thank you for bringing it up. And it, it is that fine line. On the one hand, we want to achieve something and this is we, and we commit to focus on it. And this is, we need to understand on how difficult it is for us as humans to build new habits. Right? So this is what you're talking about is building a new habit. So you need to focus on building that new habit. And the reason why you do this is because it's, it's in line with your ‘why’. But then you're saying, okay, oh, but there's all these 10 other things. And what, what I quite often use is I use a parking lot, the term, and it's a project management term is, and what I'm saying is, okay, let's focus on just this one task. 

Gabriele (00:22:35):

And that's all what we focus on. I understand that you have these 10 other things that are really important for you, and let's put them all in a parking lot. So that way there's a sense of trust. They are captured. They are not forgotten because this is quite often what clients feel is if I don't work on them right now, they are forgotten. So if you create a system that says they are there, but one step at a time. Let's work on this one item first and make some progress. And we can define what progress looks like. 

Sara McCullough (00:23:15):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. 

Gabriele (00:23:16):

And then once we all agree, we have made some progress, let's go back to that parking lot and let's see what else we going to introduce. 

Sara McCullough (00:23:26):

Okay. 

Gabriele (00:23:26):

And we, we are taking it one step at a time, and this is this idea of, we are never, this is idea on how we improve. And in most cases, we have this incremental approve. It's like small steps. And as soon as, and, and there's this great picture, and I can send it to you. There's two ladders side by side. And one has the ladder that has like these big spaces in between. And people stand in front of the ladder and they can't climb it because the spaces are too big. Yeah. And then you have the ladder beside it, and it has all these little, uh, just little spaces in between. And I can climb this. And if I wanna stand on just on one step, I can do that because I, the next step I need to take is it's not that big. I think I can manage that. And, and 

Sara McCullough (00:24:16):

This that's so interesting, 

Gabriele (00:24:18):

And this is where we need to find in project management. First of all, we need to always make sure are we moving in the right direction. And then we need to make the steps small enough that we can actually reach that next milestone. And once we reach it, we better celebrate it. 

Sara McCullough (00:24:35):

There's that right? I think we <laugh>. We so miss that, um, I think because we do, I think we all do it to some extent that we will just focus on what we haven't done. Right. Or what still, um, is there, or how many rungs are still on the ladder though. And, and I think that's just so easy to do. And I know one of your slides that I really love, one of the things you said about the reality of, of projects is that your, your team client trumps the technical expertise of the team members every time. And I think that's again so interesting. Um, sometimes when something doesn't work out, you know, at a, a company project level, we assume somebody screwed it up, right. Somebody was dumb. Or I would say the majority of my clients at some point in an introduction call, have this hesitation of, I don't wanna ask you my actual question, because it's so dumb. We assume everybody else knows. I say to clients all the time, we assume that everybody else can budget. And it's just us that can't, that's not true. That is not true. Or, you know, everybody else understands their RSP statement and I don't. And so I think there's that I, if you can talk a little bit just about the, the interaction between the actual technical skills versus that team climate, or, or kind of our head space that we're working in. And, and how does that affect the project? 

Gabriele (00:26:27):

Well, we know from, from so many studies is that the human interaction is either going to make a project successful or allows it to fail. And, and this is, and, and a lot of this work is based on trust. So how do we develop a trusting climate within our, within our family unit, within our project unit, within our organization. And trust is so hard to build and very easy to lose. And what I like to do is at the beginning is we, and from a project management perspective, we always talk about charter, and this is the objectives and all of that and, and that's good, that's important. But what's just as important is what are our rules of engagement, or as we call it in the project term, a team charter? And what that refers to is how do we relate to one another? How do we rebuild trust? How do we talk to one another? And how do we create that relationship that, um, that everything is fair game and how do we start building that? And, and that is, I would say it's a project manager and coach, this is where I spent most of my time. 

Gabriele (00:28:06):

And just to give you this ideas, and I've heard so much about Ted Lasso, and I don't know if, you know, like Ted Lasso is not, well yeah, this coach. And, uh, so last night I actually started watching it. I binge watched. Yeah. And <laugh>, so he had this, uh, this one situation and he said, if my players don't get along off the field, they will not get along on the field. Okay. And it was that same ideas. If we don't establish this mutual respect for one another, it's not going to work. So, so how do we start with this is, yeah. Sometimes, uh, what I do is with, with brainstorming session, what I do is because normally, always say, oh, you just say it out loud is, and I've actually moved away from that is because again, people are not sure, oh, if my question's stupid, so I do it anonymously first. 

Gabriele (00:29:04):

And I say, everybody is sending me your question to your concerns. And then we going to go through it because chances are whatever is of interest to you is of interest to everybody. And this starts to create this atmosphere of, oh, I didn't think of that question, but that's actually a great question. Yeah. This is really helpful to me too. And it takes a long time for people to truly share, um, openly what they think. So this is where you need to create sometimes the space at the beginning on these one-on-one spaces to create the trust between you and the family member before you can open up. And you can say, you create that trust among the family unit that in itself requires numerous steps, 

Sara McCullough (00:29:58):

Right? So in your opinion, can you rebuild trust at the same time that you're also making changes? That are more related to the business technical side of things? Can you do both? 

Gabriele (00:30:11):

Uh, sometimes you have to, but it's going to slow you down. 

Sara McCullough (00:30:16):

Okay. 

Gabriele (00:30:17):

And you need to spend more time on rebuilding the trust than the technical pieces, because the technical pieces will fall into place. 

Sara McCullough (00:30:27):

Okay. That's so interesting. Because I think again, sometimes, um, and I I'm, I'm thinking of, of some of my client questions sometimes around, um, uh, you know, again, going back to that income and expense money and money out, I do a lot of work around that with, with all of my clients. Um, and sometimes we come in, often they come in with this idea of budgeting, um, in my experience that traditional idea that just popped into your head when I said that does not actually work for most people. Um, but sometimes clients will ask me repeatedly, um, you know, well, is there an app that I can use? Is there something that I can, right. But they keep going back to, it must be the technology <laugh> right. It must be the technol. If I could just find the right app, I could, I could, you know, make it so that I didn't run out of money before I was done the month. And sometimes I'm thinking, that's not your issue. That's not your issue at all. <laugh> right. But I think sometimes we want that. Is there a technology, um, that will do this for me, that will mean I don't have to look at my actual relationship with money. Right? Like, is there a, can I shove this over to just, uh, an emotionless technical issue?

Gabriele (00:31:53):

Yeah. Sara, you speak my language. I have exactly the same question is just give me the tool. And, and what I'm always saying is the tool just makes you fail faster. If you don't, if, if you don't address the core issue, a tool is not going to help you. And I think this is so hard for people, and this is where that change comes in and recognizing, oh, I need to change. I have a client right now. And it's, again, the first thing they want to say is, okay, just give me the tool and say, oh, I, I, I think it's far more than that. And, and, uh, and where I like to start off is, is like, what is actually your role? What do you think is your responsibility? What is not your responsibility? In going, like, stepping back on, on what role do you play in what role is somebody else playing? And just by that, going through that process saying, oh, okay. I, I have to take some accountability for my actions. Yes. And, and this is understanding on, uh, what my role is and what my accountability is, is a big one. And, and then that whole ideas on how we create some new habits. And again, you need to start off so small because it is so hard. 

Sara McCullough (00:33:28):

I, I recall replying to a post on LinkedIn. I think it was last year? Somebody had posted the, you know, it takes 21 days to change a habit. Why is that phrase still hanging around? Why <laugh>, I think it's, you know, from what I understand, it doesn't, it takes so much longer, but then we, we use it, you know, I think we see it if you're just scrolling through or, you know, it pops up somewhere and then you feel like a failure. Right. Then I think we've got that feeling of those two ladders that you mentioned that the next rung is so far off, because I've tried committing to a 21 day program for whatever, whatever before, and I couldn't do it. And that sense of, ‘but everybody else can do it, except me’. I think is so damaging to so many areas in our lives. 

Gabriele (00:34:25):

And, and this is what this also requires is to know yourself like, and, and, and being reflective on when change worked for us, what was in place. And, uh, I give you an example is, uh, so fitness schedules, a huge one, right? Especially through the pandemic, how do we introduce fitness? And I, I go to the local rec center, there's one program, and I just can hold onto that one program. And I, and I'm trying to figure out why can I hold onto this into nothing else? Is it the, in, I think it's the instructor. It's a little bit that, that I need people around me and somehow the exercise is working. So, and it's stood to also being, uh, reflective on when something has worked for us, why did it work and what was so good about it? Okay. And, and what that does it's, first of all, it's telling us, hey, we can do it. We have done it in the past. So, and, and that is, gives us some self-confidence. And hopefully it gives us some insights to say, I, I can do this again. 

Sara McCullough (00:35:45):

But it also sounds like there's a little bit of your role that is saying things so that people can hear them because maybe, um, what works for you might not work for somebody else, but we could still get to the same goal. So, as you were talking about the exercise that works for you, I've had, um, an online yoga subscription actually for four years. So it was, it was very pre pandemic for me. Um, and I, I do use it. I, you know, and people say to me all the time, well, why do you pay for that? There's, you know, just Google for yoga classes online. And I say, well, it doesn't, I, I don't, I don't fully understand why this works for me. What I know is over the past four, four and a half years, I probably average two to three times a week of doing these classes. That's really consistent. I'm pretty excited about that. And, and so I, I could probably name a few of the things that I know work for me, for me, it actually works because there's different instructors. You just said it works because <laugh> yes. And so, 

Gabriele (00:37:01):

Yeah. Oh, for sure. 

Sara McCullough (00:37:02):

So if the two of us were, you know, at a company, that's, that's doing a project making a change, possibly you need to hear something different than I need to hear about how to get us, to use our skills, to get to the goal. 

Gabriele (00:37:19):

Absolutely. And, and I think that's so important too, is to understand what you need. And, and I'm a big, uh, like there's a saying on, um, it takes a village to raise a child. It takes a village to do anything. And, and what we need to define is who is our village. Who do we need around us to, to help us and to support us, to rally for us, to, to help us to get to that next level. And, and so often we feel like, oh, we have to do it on our own and if we, if we cannot do it on our own, we are weak. No, it is actually a sign of strength if you know who you need to help you to reach your goals. 

Sara McCullough (00:38:09):

Okay. So in, in that piece that I just said about, you know, it seems that there's some differences between you and I about exercising and what works. And so let's say we're, we're, you know, uh, in the middle of a project and we're maybe not the ones managing the project. So we're the ones, you know, maybe a little lower down. Talk to me about the accountability between how much of that is, is mine to sort out as I'm listening to a manager or somebody, and, and I'm, I'm feeling in my head, like, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I don't wanna do that. How much is my responsibility to find the pieces in there that I say, okay, wait, that makes sense. And I do want this outcome, so maybe I could do it this way, versus how much is the, like, for lack of a better term, the manager's responsibility to deliver it in a couple of different ways. So maybe both of us can hear it. Is there accountability on both sides? Would you say, or is one person more? 

Gabriele (00:39:12):

It is definite. 

Sara McCullough (00:39:14):

Okay. 

Gabriele (00:39:14):

Yeah, it is definitely on both sides. And, and when I talk to, to, uh, project leaders, I always talk about on how important their role is to define, and to set up this vision on where the organization needs to go. But then just as important is this idea on supporting, listening, coaching, um, and, and it's not just hearing, but also acting on it and showing a proactive interest on what is, what is happening in my team member's lives and how can I make them successful. So this idea of walking in each other's shoes, having that empathy is so important. So the worst thing is that a leader can say is, ‘I don't care on how you do it, just make it happen’. 

Sara McCullough (00:40:15):

Okay. 

Gabriele (00:40:16):

<laugh> that is such a really <laugh>, you should care, and how I do it, you should care about me and about the outcome, right? <laugh> It is, it is, uh, recognizing that there are different ways of doing it is being curious on, on how it could be done, because there's just as much learning from an, from a leadership perspective, as there's a learning from ‘I'm a team member and I just ran into this is, and I'm not quite sure on what to do with it’. 

Sara McCullough (00:40:48):

Okay. 

Gabriele (00:40:49):

So it has to be this ongoing dialogue and problem solving. And you can only have that if you have trust. Right. If, you know, if, if your team members ever feel like they're the messengers that is being shot, you 

Sara McCullough (00:41:08):

<laugh> not gonna get very far

Gabriele (00:41:09):

Right. <laugh> why would I share? 

Sara McCullough (00:41:14):

There are some conversations that I have, because for some of my work, I, I work with a team of advisors, so accountants, lawyers, other professionals, and sometimes we have, um, a, a debate about, uh, am I as an advisor doing too much? Like, what is the client's responsibility and what is my responsibility as an advisor? And it's interesting because I often, uh, have been professionally scolded for <laugh>, um, not letting the client be accountable. And sometimes I, you know, the client needs to do this, or the client needs to, and sometimes my position is, but the client, when they came to all of us said, I need help. I can't do this. And so sometimes I will, I, I remember one time sending a reminder around to the clients and the other team members saying, so it's now, you know, middle of October client's goal was to get this agreement done by end of December. 

Sara McCullough (00:42:21):

So that gives us X number of weeks. Here are my missing items for each client, you know, kind of please discuss. And one of the other advisors came back and said, how could you do that? You should have left this alone. You should have let the clients. And I thought, but they came to a saying, we, we can't figure this out. It had been very long running without an agreement. And they were, they were just stuck. So they said, we're stuck. And then they said, our, our date is really this. Like, we would love it if we could be this. And so it was interesting to me that for me, that was following through on what the client asked and helping with where they were stuck. Um, and from the other advisor's perspective, it was me interfering and doing too much. And I thought, I wonder, you know, that must be such a struggle on, on projects about, and, and I think we all are on various sides of the line in, in different moments. Some, some days I do over advise <laugh> some days I under advise. Right. But I think there's, it's interesting to acknowledge that there's maybe responsibility on both sides and that may shift over time. Do you think it, it shifts? 

Gabriele (00:43:41):

And I think that role definition is so important. So like thinking of my own tax situation, I want my tax advisor to tell me step-by-step on what I need to do, because I don't wanna become an expert. It is something I have to do. Yes. I want it done well, but the least I have to do with it, the better off I am. So that is a very different project on when I say this is now, we want to change. Um, and on overall process, you will be a part of it and your role and responsibilities will change after. So you might as well wanna be a part of it to make sure that this new reality that we are creating, that that will work for you. That is a very different kind of a project. And I think to outline at the beginning, what is my role? What do you expect from me? And what do I expect from you is so important. And sometimes we just take a sheet of paper and say, okay, that's what it is. 

Sara McCullough (00:44:47):

Yes. 

Gabriele (00:44:48):

And, and everybody just glance at it. Yeah. Makes sense. Check mark. Next. <laugh> it's so easy.

Sara McCullough (00:44:54):

Right? 

Gabriele (00:44:55):

It's very easy. We have the form. We, you know, we, we might even ask for a signature. Yes. But we haven't really thought it through. And, and perhaps in some cases when it's like something that is so, um, that just needs to be done. It's not personally enriching, it's not anything. Um, then, then that's okay. If you spell it out, like you will do all the steps and I will just provide the information and that's all I don't wanna learn about it, I just wanted to get done. Very different than if, uh, you are an advisor and you're saying I have serious money issues, I need to learn to spend differently, otherwise I'm going to go bankrupt. That is a very different situation because now we need to change habits. We need to, we need to recreate a life, perhaps even adjust expectations. That's far more gut wrenching than doing the process of submitting your bookkeeping at year end. 

Sara McCullough (00:46:07):

Yes. Right. Like, let's just look at your business numbers for this quarter and see, are we over under, where are we at? Right. Um, and I think, you know, you, you mentioned that phrase earlier that this perception, that project management is all about being on time and on budget. Right. And you know, when you say that doesn't work, part of me thinks, oh, hooray. Right. Like, like we can now actually get more meaningful work done and we can make more meaningful changes. But then the other part of me thinks like, damn it, that sounds so lovely though. 

Gabriele (00:46:39):

Yes. 

Sara McCullough (00:46:40):

Do you know what I mean? <laugh> like, if you could just take this big snarly problem and wrestle it into, you know, some steps and some spreadsheets, and we're just gonna check this box, um, and, and it's going to, you know, change the world. 

Gabriele (00:46:55):

Yeah. So I, and I always like to analogy is, uh, my husband and I actually went through a process and, um, and built a cottage together. And, and I'm very lucky that, uh, my husband is, he's not an architect, but he is very good visual thinking. And, and quite, and so we had an original budget and then fortunately at the time, and what I call now, the ‘might as well’ budget. This is a budget that things come up, <laugh> you think now is it, is, is the time to do it. It's the cheapest. It's the only time almost to do it. You need to have money aside that you haven't thought of. But what is also important is, is if you just say, okay, this is, um, if, if you don't think it through or you you're thinking, okay, I'm just gonna build this box. 

Gabriele (00:47:56):

And, and this is it. Then quite often, what you build is not what you actually wanted to build. And if you don't do it right there at the beginning, you will stare this mistake. You will see that mistake forever. And, and I think this is something where we need to understand the tradeoffs. And I think life is always about tradeoffs and understanding if I take this, that means I have to let go of these three things. And that is not and, and if we don't do that, well, we have regrets. And, and this is that cautious thinking at the time is, am I making the right decision at the time with the information I have with the budget I have? And, and quite often, even like now 10 years later, we think, oh, perhaps we should have done this. And what we always need to remind ourselves is at the time when we build, yeah, we were thinking about it, but we didn't have the means. And we made the decision to not do this is because we didn't have the means or something else was more important. And I think that process helps you to manage that regret factor that is so that we can so easily fall into and is so counterproductive. 

Sara McCullough (00:49:19):

Yes. I mean, there are just so many things that you said in that last statement, um, that I think of, um, when I talk to my clients about planning, you know, everything from, uh, sometimes, you know, clients, especially at the beginning of the meeting, um, you know, if I've seen them before or if I'm showing them their, their retirement projection, or, you know, if I say, when would you like to retire? And they kind of, especially if they've had a bad day or a bad couple of weeks, or, you know, after the pandemic a bad couple of months, and they say, oh, can I retire tomorrow? And sometimes I say, of course you can. And they initially get all excited. And then they realize, oh, wait, I mean, any of us can retire tomorrow. The question is, how much are you going to have to live on? 

Sara McCullough (00:50:09):

You know, you may be living on $2 a month. Exactly. Um, right. Like you can do it, but do you want it? And, and just that sense of every time, everything can't be at the top of the list. Right. If so, I do a lot of work with my clients around what is most important. Um, and I, I now usually almost warn clients because in an initial meeting, I will ask them, what do they want, you know, when do they want to retire? What do they want their career to look like? Um, and they tell me, and sometimes they're quite certain. Um, and then I show them at the next meeting what does that look like? So in pictures, what does that look like? And I often will say the initial plan survives generally 20 to 40 minutes into me showing it to you. Because as, almost as soon as it's out of your head and, and somebody else, so I have taken it and said, okay, so it will look like this. 

Sara McCullough (00:51:12):

Then, then the people involved can start to say, oh, wait, I don't like that. I don't like the way that looks. Um, or I don't like this part or, um, the other thing that happens equally often is I didn't say this the first time, because I didn't think it was possible, or I thought it was too silly, or I thought it was too ridiculous. Um, but again, once we can see it, we are able to adjust or we are able to see, oh, wait, I actually don't want that. Um, but it's so interesting to me that, that we're so sure. We're so sure. Um, I think my biggest, uh, change was, was a couple that were very sure they were going to sell their existing house as soon as their youngest child graduated from high school. They said the house is too big. We're downsizing. 

Sara McCullough (00:52:08):

We don't even really like the house. Like it it's gone. And, um, they were both very sure on that. And so in their plan presentation, I'm going through the graphs and I said, okay, so I sold the house here and then it looks like, and he says to me, wait, what, well, where are we living? And I said, well, we can talk about, would you like to rebuy? Would you like to? And he says, well, wait, I, I don't wanna, I don't wanna sell the house. And I said, well, would you like me to update it? So you keep the house and then you could see what else is available. And, and he was, it was so funny to me that in that moment, when I said, just on screen in a piece of software, I sold your house. He said, well, full stop. No. And within eight months they had done a $300,000 renovation on their existing house. Wow. So that's different. Yeah. And again, they were both very sure. They were both really sure that this was a very temporary house and all these things. And so it was so interesting as we talked through options, um, that, that it really did come down to actually, this is the house that, that we want to keep. 

Gabriele (00:53:20):

Don't you find it so interesting on how difficult it is for us to visualize sometimes? And once we do, yes. Things become that much clearer. Yes. And, and this is in project management. We face this all the time, as in what, how can we visualize it? Because once we visualize it, oh, it, it becomes so obvious. 

Sara McCullough (00:53:42):

Yes. 

Gabriele (00:53:44):

And just, again, the analogy to house buying. I mean, we know that if a staged house reaches a higher, uh, selling price than an unstaged house, because we cannot visualize. 

Sara McCullough (00:53:55):

Right. Right. 

Gabriele (00:53:58):

And, and so this is in project management, I'm constant looking for ways. And I deal a lot with in, so say, how can I visualize this? How can I work, walk people through it that they can actually see on how the new reality is going to look like, because then much faster we going to realize, is this going to work or not? <laugh>  

Sara McCullough (00:54:17):

Right. Is this what you actually want? Yeah. 

Sara McCullough (00:54:22):

And, and I think you're right. And, and I think at the same time, um, I find sometimes in my conversations with clients, I'm thinking, you're telling me this, but you also told me this other thing. And, and I, I don't anticipate that, like, I, I, I don't, I think this other thing needs more room to be discussed or, or for you to see it. Um, and so it, I will often do multiple scenarios for clients, even in a first meeting. So there's what they really said they wanted like, exactly what you said, but then I will think back through the conversation. And, uh, I did have one where she was moving cities. So Cambridge to Toronto, um, she had already signed a lease to rent a place in Toronto and she loved it. And she sent me pictures and it was the cutest thing ever. 

Sara McCullough (00:55:28):

(Noise in the background for me, Doug's gonna cut that out. There we go.) Um, so she had already signed a lease in Toronto. It was the cutest place ever. And, um, about, and I'm, so I'm thinking back and I'm, I'm thinking about what she said to me and, um, you know, her ideas down the road, and then about an hour and a half before our meeting, she emailed me and she said, I am really sorry to do this. And if you wanna reschedule the meeting, I completely understand. I just signed to purchase a condo this morning. It, it just happened really fast. I saw it, I loved it, I put an offer in, and I bought it. So if you wanna reschedule so you can redo all my finances, I am totally okay with that, I am so sorry. And I said, that's okay, we can still do the meeting because I have that scenario. 

Sara McCullough (00:56:20):

And it was like dead on the price that she had paid and all those other things <laugh> well, but I said, you actually already said this to me in, in a couple of comments that she made. Um, she had already said owning was important and Toronto was where she wanted to be. And it, yeah, it was just so interesting. So I think, again, as we are talking about our own situations, sometimes we drop clues that maybe what we're saying, isn't fully where our heart lives, or, or maybe there are some things that we would love to see, but we can't quite say. And so I, that's been interesting for me as, as an advisor and as I, you know, have more experience to, to just figure out what might work for a client, what else did you say to me that perhaps fully saying felt like too much? I don't wanna commit to this because I think it's crazy, or I don't think I can do it, but I would love to know if it's possible. Right. And I, I think that's, uh, a really overlooked piece of financial planning. 

Gabriele (00:57:41):

And this comes back to what makes a good project manager, a good financial planner is hearing, what's not being said and being able to respond to that and bring it into the picture. And, and I believe this is what makes, uh, a good project manager, a great project manager is always listening for these kinds of undertones on what is, what are the true issues? What are the true risks? What are the true opportunities? 

Sara McCullough (00:58:17):

I think we will leave it there for today. I have so many other things <laugh>, this may not be our last recorded conversation. I know it won't be our last conversation. It also may not be our last recorded conversation. Thank you so much, Gabriele. Um, for everybody who's listening, Gabriele’s contact information, um, will be in the show notes, uh, and on my website. And I do so appreciate your time and your expertise and your heart today. Thank you so much. 

Gabriele (00:58:48):

This was a lot of fun. <laugh> 

Sara McCullough (00:58:50):

I'm so glad. 

Sara McCullough (00:58:57):

For our listeners who want to make changes in 2022. Remember Gabriele’s key points, which she's developed after years of experience. You need to know why the change is important. Really why. If you're looking at doing a financial plan this year, what do you want to happen? What do you want to change? What do you want to stop? You need to know your goals and be able to adjust. So be prepared that where you start may not be where you finish, but you don't wanna let go of your goals. You may just need to find a different way to get there. Remember to check in on what's working and what's not. If people are 50% of project costs, you are at least 50% of your own costs. So remember to take a look at what matters to you, what are you doing? What can you let go of? And what do you want to keep? 

Sara McCullough (00:59:58):

Remember from time to time, we need someone who can cut through the noise. And in 2022, there is a lot of noise. You need someone who not only gets to know you as a person, but can also really show and make sense of your financial plan and do so honestly, clearly, concisely. I'm not talking just about the numbers. I'm talking about explaining what the numbers mean for you, this relationship with your numbers and your money, this plan for what you do with it and don't do with it belong to you, not your planner. I'm Sara McCullough, thank you for listening to Sara Makes Sense.